Question from a dumb American.

illy5603 · 11 September 2009, 06:35

Ok, so I have found an LG multisystem TV (27" Tube, 4:3, I am thinking perfect for playing PAL Amiga / CD32 stuff on!) and had a few really basic questions.

It has regular composite (RCA) input jacks and a SCART connector. Is RGB to SCART something common or are the diagrams floating around just homebrew projects? I imagine SCART/RGB > Composite RCA any day of the week right?

I don't know much about Multisystem TV sets (PAL/NTCS) do they auto adjust from the input signal or do you have to select the correct mode from a menu?

I am buying this thing for 50$ so it is a cheap experiment. It beats putting an Indivision AGA inside every single Amiga / CD32 I buy.

illy5603 · 11 September 2009, 06:53

Ok I guess I answered my own question on ebay.co.uk there are a bunch of these (RGB / SCART + Stereo Sound). So, is the picture quality pretty good then? I imagine it would be!

StevenJGore · 11 September 2009, 10:32

RGB to SCART is the best picture you'll get through a CRT TV.

Just make sure the TV can accept RGB inputs via SCART. Some can only accept video composite via SCART.

Steve.

PowerPie5000 · 11 September 2009, 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by illy5603

Ok I guess I answered my own question on ebay.co.uk there are a bunch of these (RGB / SCART + Stereo Sound). So, is the picture quality pretty good then? I imagine it would be!

It's better than S-video and is the best you can get for a CRT TV - RGB Scart is good for both 50/60hz signals

illy5603 · 11 September 2009, 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenJGore

RGB to SCART is the best picture you'll get through a CRT TV.

Just make sure the TV can accept RGB inputs via SCART. Some can only accept video composite via SCART.

Steve.

Got it! Thanks!

illy5603 · 17 September 2009, 00:16

One more quick question for people that play their 1200's on PAL TV sets. Do you guys get a bit of flicker, especially noticeable on predominately white screens? Is this just a PAL thing? Could it be the cheap composite (yellow RCA) cable I was using for my test? I have an Amiga RGB / SCART cable coming in from Amigakit and hopefully that will produce better results.

Anyway, just curious. It wasn't horrible flicker like interlace flicker but it was a bit annoying.

prowler · 17 September 2009, 00:24

Hi illy,

I can connect my A1200 to my PAL TV using three methods: RF ouput, Composite video to SCART and RGB to SCART.

The only difference I get is sharpness of picure. RGB monitor output is best, followed by Composite video and finally RF output.

The only flicker I have seen was due to a faulty Amiga PSU, and it was present on all three outputs.

illy5603 · 17 September 2009, 00:31

Thanks Prowler,

The Amiga I was testing it on has a whole host of problems including bad caps and being way too modified to be game friendly. It is also NTSC native and I am booting it in to PAL mode with the mouse buttons.

I ordered a true PAL 1200 and CD32 from Amigakit this week so I am hoping those look better on the TV.

PowerPie5000 · 17 September 2009, 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by illy5603

One more quick question for people that play their 1200's on PAL TV sets. Do you guys get a bit of flicker, especially noticeable on predominately white screens? Is this just a PAL thing? Could it be the cheap composite (yellow RCA) cable I was using for my test? I have an Amiga RGB / SCART cable coming in from Amigakit and hopefully that will produce better results.

Anyway, just curious. It wasn't horrible flicker like interlace flicker but it was a bit annoying.

I don't get any flicker at all using a PAL TV in 50hz... but i prefer using 60hz PAL/NTSC signals with an RGB scart cable for many of my consoles. My TV can support upto 100hz but i don't think any console outputs that high? works great with my PC though

Anyway i think 50hz is best for the Amiga as i think there were only a tiny amount of games designed to run at 60hz.

Retro1234 · 17 September 2009, 01:37

A lot of games can be played in NTSC with WHDload, I usually prefure this as it fills more of the screen.

PowerPie5000 · 17 September 2009, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

A lot of games can be played in NTSC with WHDload, I usually prefure this as it fills more of the screen.

Does it not make games run and sound a bit faster than they should be? I thought most amiga games were developed for PAL systems and were PAL optimised... or am i wrong??

illy5603 · 17 September 2009, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPie5000

Does it not make games run and sound a bit faster than they should be? I thought most amiga games were developed for PAL systems and were PAL optimised... or am i wrong??

I think that when some games get the WHDLOAD treatment they fix that? Or are they just making NTSC versions of the games? I don't understand why a PAL version doesn't fill up an entire screen either but I will probably figure it out soon. :-)

Retro1234 · 17 September 2009, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPie5000

Does it not make games run and sound a bit faster than they should be? I thought most amiga games were developed for PAL systems and were PAL optimised... or am i wrong??

No your right

- It can cause Fast Audio - I dont mind a bit of speedup in game but some games like GODS ive had different problems, generally I think its worth trying in NTSC.
Lotus 2 and GoldenAxe seem better to me in NTSC although made for PAL.

Isnt it something to do with the number of Lines that make up the picture?

Photon · 17 September 2009, 20:48

For PAL games running at 60 Hz:

Unless the game math/physics/movement was specifically adjusted for a faster framerate by the developer (some Graftgold games might be, I think), the game will 'feel' 20% faster (and require faster reflexes!

)

All games except some flight sims have the player movement synced to the vsync, that's why. You could say something like, "all games running at full framerate and half framerate" attach the movement of all moving stuff to vsync. Only a very few games adjust for the actual time between frames.

If WHDload only adjusts the SCREENSIZE and doesn't switch to a 60 Hz mode, the PAL game should run at PAL speed, ofc. Haven't tried this.

Slight flicker watching white screens is normal for any CRT - your eyes will adjust to it after a short while and it becomes unnoticable. It all depends on the phosphor layer in the brand of CRT tube. Some retain the image long enough, some (like f.ex. some Trinitron tubes) are worse.

Captain Obvious :P drones on:

Even on VGA CRTs you can get flicker if you don't set the Refresh to 85Hz or higher. (Not installing monitor drivers can cause all displaymodes to default to 60 Hz or make 85 Hz modes inaccessible without Refresh-forcing software such as Powerstrip). The reason for VGA CRTs to require 85Hz or higher before getting rid of the flicker is that they usually have a very thin phosphor layer in the tube.

Retro1234 · 18 September 2009, 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photon

For PAL games running at 60 Hz:

Unless the game math/physics/movement was specifically adjusted for a faster framerate by the developer (some Graftgold games might be, I think), the game will 'feel' 20% faster (and require faster reflexes!

)

20% seems a lot - NZS doesnt feel like its running 20% faster in NTSC or other games I tried - Can someone confirm the speed increase or how it works.

killergorilla · 18 September 2009, 15:18

A game designed for 50Hz will run at 1.2 times the speed (20% faster) (60/50 = 1.2) on a 60Hz machine.

Similarly, a game designed for 60Hz will run at roughly 83% the speed on a 50Hz machine (50/60 * 100 = 83.33%)

thomas · 18 September 2009, 15:53

Quote:

50/100 * 60 = 1.2

Strange. My calculator says that 50 / 100 * 60 = 30.

60 / 50 = 1.2 or 120 %

50 / 60 = 0.833 or 83.3 %

killergorilla · 18 September 2009, 15:55

Yes...

I was eating at the time... plus... your calculator is broken... honest.

Fixed

thomas · 18 September 2009, 15:59

Quote:

your calculator is broken

Yes, that's probably the reason. Or yours calculates with miles while mine calculates with kilometers. Something like that.

Retro1234 · 18 September 2009, 15:59

To bussy shoving down Magic Ice - Would you not agree some games seem better in NTSC?

11 September 2009, 06:35	#1
illy5603 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPaT CiTY Posts: 557	Question from a dumb American. Ok, so I have found an LG multisystem TV (27" Tube, 4:3, I am thinking perfect for playing PAL Amiga / CD32 stuff on!) and had a few really basic questions. It has regular composite (RCA) input jacks and a SCART connector. Is RGB to SCART something common or are the diagrams floating around just homebrew projects? I imagine SCART/RGB > Composite RCA any day of the week right? I don't know much about Multisystem TV sets (PAL/NTCS) do they auto adjust from the input signal or do you have to select the correct mode from a menu? I am buying this thing for 50$ so it is a cheap experiment. It beats putting an Indivision AGA inside every single Amiga / CD32 I buy.

17 September 2009, 20:48	#14
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	For PAL games running at 60 Hz: Unless the game math/physics/movement was specifically adjusted for a faster framerate by the developer (some Graftgold games might be, I think), the game will 'feel' 20% faster (and require faster reflexes! ) All games except some flight sims have the player movement synced to the vsync, that's why. You could say something like, "all games running at full framerate and half framerate" attach the movement of all moving stuff to vsync. Only a very few games adjust for the actual time between frames. If WHDload only adjusts the SCREENSIZE and doesn't switch to a 60 Hz mode, the PAL game should run at PAL speed, ofc. Haven't tried this. Slight flicker watching white screens is normal for any CRT - your eyes will adjust to it after a short while and it becomes unnoticable. It all depends on the phosphor layer in the brand of CRT tube. Some retain the image long enough, some (like f.ex. some Trinitron tubes) are worse. Captain Obvious :P drones on: Even on VGA CRTs you can get flicker if you don't set the Refresh to 85Hz or higher. (Not installing monitor drivers can cause all displaymodes to default to 60 Hz or make 85 Hz modes inaccessible without Refresh-forcing software such as Powerstrip). The reason for VGA CRTs to require 85Hz or higher before getting rid of the flicker is that they usually have a very thin phosphor layer in the tube. Last edited by Photon; 17 September 2009 at 21:10.

18 September 2009, 15:18	#16
killergorilla Lesser Talent Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 7,957	A game designed for 50Hz will run at 1.2 times the speed (20% faster) (60/50 = 1.2) on a 60Hz machine. Similarly, a game designed for 60Hz will run at roughly 83% the speed on a 50Hz machine (50/60 * 100 = 83.33%) Last edited by killergorilla; 18 September 2009 at 15:55.

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11 September 2009, 06:53	#2
illy5603 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPaT CiTY Posts: 557	Ok I guess I answered my own question on ebay.co.uk there are a bunch of these (RGB / SCART + Stereo Sound). So, is the picture quality pretty good then? I imagine it would be!

11 September 2009, 10:32	#3
StevenJGore Amiga Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: North Yorkshire, UK Age: 46 Posts: 726	RGB to SCART is the best picture you'll get through a CRT TV. Just make sure the TV can accept RGB inputs via SCART. Some can only accept video composite via SCART. Steve.

17 September 2009, 00:16	#6
illy5603 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPaT CiTY Posts: 557	One more quick question for people that play their 1200's on PAL TV sets. Do you guys get a bit of flicker, especially noticeable on predominately white screens? Is this just a PAL thing? Could it be the cheap composite (yellow RCA) cable I was using for my test? I have an Amiga RGB / SCART cable coming in from Amigakit and hopefully that will produce better results. Anyway, just curious. It wasn't horrible flicker like interlace flicker but it was a bit annoying.

17 September 2009, 00:24	#7
prowler Global Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Sidcup, England Posts: 10,300	Hi illy, I can connect my A1200 to my PAL TV using three methods: RF ouput, Composite video to SCART and RGB to SCART. The only difference I get is sharpness of picure. RGB monitor output is best, followed by Composite video and finally RF output. The only flicker I have seen was due to a faulty Amiga PSU, and it was present on all three outputs.

17 September 2009, 00:31	#8
illy5603 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPaT CiTY Posts: 557	Thanks Prowler, The Amiga I was testing it on has a whole host of problems including bad caps and being way too modified to be game friendly. It is also NTSC native and I am booting it in to PAL mode with the mouse buttons. I ordered a true PAL 1200 and CD32 from Amigakit this week so I am hoping those look better on the TV.

17 September 2009, 01:37	#10
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,773	A lot of games can be played in NTSC with WHDload, I usually prefure this as it fills more of the screen.

18 September 2009, 15:55	#18
killergorilla Lesser Talent Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 7,957	Yes... I was eating at the time... plus... your calculator is broken... honest. Fixed

18 September 2009, 15:59	#20
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,773	To bussy shoving down Magic Ice - Would you not agree some games seem better in NTSC?

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