Graphics cards - Page 2

zipper · 12 July 2010, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hewitson

I'm not aware of any software which accesses the hardware directly (as opposed to via Warp3D), but surely something like Quake or Wipeout would easily use 100% of the extremely limited 3D capabilities of the ViRGE.

There is Descent Virge version - somewhat playable on max 320x400 screen with a 060.

Zetr0 · 12 July 2010, 19:42

you know I might just look into writing a patch for Warp3D for S3 ViRGE chipsets...

hmmm need to find the SD3D dev kit...

source · 12 July 2010, 23:35

I would double check, but I think if you get a mediator and one of the radeon cards with say 256 megs, you would be able to patition the memory so that you can use say 32 megs for video, and the remainder can be for system memory. You get a fast video card and memory expantion in one go. I would double check that though. I have one of the new cards, but I am still reassembling my 4000T. I have not been able to set it up yet.

fitzsteve · 13 July 2010, 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by source

I would double check, but I think if you get a mediator and one of the radeon cards with say 256 megs, you would be able to patition the memory so that you can use say 32 megs for video, and the remainder can be for system memory. You get a fast video card and memory expantion in one go. I would double check that though. I have one of the new cards, but I am still reassembling my 4000T. I have not been able to set it up yet.

There is a thread with some info that might be of use to you

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...ghlight=radeon

Steve.

matthey · 13 July 2010, 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

you know I might just look into writing a patch for Warp3D for S3 ViRGE chipsets...

hmmm need to find the SD3D dev kit...

There is already a Warp3D driver for the Virge. Why a patch?

The Virge Driver is pretty lame though. There is the typical compiler optimization problems and it uses divides instead of invert and multiply with constants. Lame. The Virge can still be useful. For example, perspective corrected texture mapping is very cpu intensive. The Warp3D.library handles many of the missing Virge features allowing for acceptable OpenGL compatibility through Mesa.

I have made a replacement Warp3D.library that provides some speed ups. It's not much but reduces the library by over 20k. I would like to hear if it works with the CyberVision3D Virge driver and gives any noticeable speedup. It's in this archive...

http://www.heywheel.com/matthey/Amiga/Warp3D.lha

Rename your Warp3D.library to something else and copy this Warp3D.library to the same location in Libs:.

If you are interested in helping to further 3D on the Amiga, then you might consider joining our Mesa/Warp3D development group. There is a thread here...

http://utilitybase.com/forum/index.p...=22&topic=2023

We also post some by e-mail. Let us know if you would like to join.

brett71 · 13 July 2010, 13:43

Thank you all for your advice and the discussion about various cards and capabilities have been fascinating.

I'm not really all that interested in trying to play any 3D games on my 3000....that's what I have my PC for and I doubt they'll be making an Amiga client for World of Warcraft anytime soon. hehehehe

Basically, I was just looking for a decent add-in video card that would allow me to have some high-color screen modes for Workbench or apps and maybe make better use of an LCD monitor than just the 3000's built-in flickerfixer.

Unfortunately, it seems like all the Z3 cards mentioned earlier are fairly hard to come by, unless you're constantly lurking in the Marketplace or similar forums on Amibay or Amiga.org... I've seen a couple of the aforementioned cards come up on those sites, but they're usually snapped up within minutes.

fitzsteve · 13 July 2010, 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by brett71

Unfortunately, it seems like all the Z3 cards mentioned earlier are fairly hard to come by, unless you're constantly lurking in the Marketplace or similar forums on Amibay or Amiga.org... I've seen a couple of the aforementioned cards come up on those sites, but they're usually snapped up within minutes.

Hi,

No need to lurk, Amibay has a 'wanted' section and you can also post a wanted thread here or at Amiga.org then the cards can come and look for you.

Steve.

brett71 · 13 July 2010, 18:34

I've gotten some leads on a couple of options for graphics cards....

Both cards I've located do not appear to have pass-throughs for the Amiga native video, unlike some older cards. Is this much of a problem, or am I looking at maybe having to run a 2-monitor system, like if I wanted to play a game or something that doesn't take advantage of the add-in graphics card?

alexh · 13 July 2010, 18:39

Pass-through on RTG is pretty useless. Modern monitors do not sync that low. You will need a scandoubler too whatever you do.

Most modern monitors have dual inputs so you could hook up both RTG & Native (via a scandoubler) and switch by pressing the menu buttons. (Not nice but cheap).

If you bought a UK/EU 4:3 LCDTV they have an RGB scandoubler built-in plus a VGA connection for RTG.

Add up the cost of the RTG gfx card + scandoubler and you'd be better off looking for a Picasso IV which also has an automatic monitor switcher built in.

Zetr0 · 13 July 2010, 18:46

@brett71

As you have an A3000 you will automatically have a 31Khz scandoubled and flicker fixer output on the back of the machine ( courtesy of the Amber Chip)

I beleive that this is an active output even during WHDLoad / NDOS games

You can combine this 15pin VGA output with a small $10 VGA Monitor Swticher and have both the A3000 Video out and the Graphics Card Video out into the VGA swtich box and then plumb that to a Good Quality CRT/TFT unit that can Sync as low as 31.5KHZ

(most CRT's should there are some TFT's that cannot thought so read the specs of the display unit before you get one)

brett71 · 13 July 2010, 19:04

So, to use one of these graphics cards, I would have to buy a special monitor? I wouldn't be able to use an off-the-shelf LCD monitor with it? Or am I getting myself completely confused?

How does the monitor switcher on the Picasso IV work?

alexh · 14 July 2010, 00:34

My mistake.

RTG gfx cards work with any monitor. Amiga native output requires a special monitor or a scandoubler. You've got an A3000 so you've already got a good scandoubler.

All you need is a monitor with dual VGA inputs (or 1*VGA and 1*DVI-I + adapter) and you'll be fine switching using the monitors buttons.

Obviously with most LCD monitors you will be limited to 60Hz (NTSC) screen modes in native resolution. 50Hz (PAL) modes through A3000 scandoubler don't work with most LCD monitors.

If you don't already own your monitor :

Try to get a 4:3 one instead of widescreen.
Try to find one with a native resolution of 1024x768 then you'll be able to run RTG at native resolution and get a better picture.
Try to find one which supports Vertical Refresh as low as 50.0 Hz if you want to use PAL.
Double check that Horizontal Refresh rates are 31.5KHz and above.

Zetr0 · 14 July 2010, 05:57

@brett71

In regards to the Picasso IV, its big selling point is the auto-switching from scan-doubled/de interlaced native amiga video to the graphics card and back again.

this is done in the software and hardware of the card. - there is no pass-though needed as it takes the video signal from the Video Slot on the Daughter Board.

However as you have an A3000 you already have a scan doubled / de-interlaced (flicker fixed) 31.5KHz video output - so this will go straight to the CRT/LCD monitor (make sure it supports the refresh rates that Alexh mentions - most CRT's should but double check)

in regards to the graphics card the Picasso IV is a very sought (hence expensive) card - infact it would probably be as expensive to get a PCI mediator and Radeon 9250 (256MB) graphics card in the A3000.

Personally though I would suggest a Good Picasso 2 / Cybervision or Picollo SD64 graphics adapter as this will be much cheaper - the former of which has an automatic software swiching pass though so you can just pug-in your 31.5KHz video signal from the 15pin VGA out of the A3000 into it. This for the most part essentially gives you the same functionallity* as the PIV for a fraction of the cost

*please note the Picasso IV can also be upgraded with a sound card / tv tuner and video encoder.

alexh · 14 July 2010, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

it would probably be as expensive to get a PCI mediator and Radeon 9250 (256MB)

I don't think so. There is no A3000Di Mediator so you need a tower too. You're talking roughly 2-3x the price of second hand PIV off eBay.

Zetr0 · 15 July 2010, 02:44

wow... I thought there was a Mediator A3000Di....

I was agasped so I checked Elbox and as sure as rain is wet - there is no A3000Di mediator, just a tower version like you said.

however interestingly - the A3000D mediator uses the PCI 4000 Core Logic card - is the mediator 40000Di busboard different?

alexh · 15 July 2010, 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

is the mediator 40000Di busboard different?

AFAIK all big-box Mediators use the same core-logic card. They just have different daughter cards.

A4000Di daughter card is a direct replacement for the A4000D daughter card. Allows you to keep the standard A4000D case.

There did used to be a Mediator Z3 board which was just a Zorro III board which plugged into any Amiga with ZIII slots. But it was crap from a form factor point of view. Like the Matay Prometheus the PCI cards were at 90' to the Zorro slots and so you couldn't put the lid on your case.

rkauer · 15 July 2010, 21:34

I was thinking on how different are the A3k & A4k daughterboards, electronically-wise.

If I manage to hook up the 4k daughterboard to the 3k it is only a matter of making a metal top cover replacement...

merlinkv · 24 July 2010, 00:36

From Elbox site:

"The minimum hardware configuration is: Amiga 3000D in tower case."

I think a big server case with some modfications is a nice solution (and not difficult to find).

But as Alexh said, if you try to install on a desktop case.... you couldn't put the lid.

About the tower installation:

http://www.elbox.com/ma/m_3000d_fold...3000d_qig.html

The price is 319 Euro with Radeon 9200 256MB (No PayPal). Not a cheap extension board, but with lot of possibilities (I mind).

utri007 · 27 July 2010, 14:30

GVP spectrum is much better

1. It supports Zorro III, picasso II doesn't. At least little bit faster because that
2. It has a passthrough, with it you get real one monitor solutin. With picasso you need second monitor or at least second input

coze · 27 July 2010, 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by utri007

2. It has a passthrough, with it you get real one monitor solutin. With picasso you need second monitor or at least second input

no, picasso 2 also has passthrough.

14 July 2010, 00:34	#32
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,355	My mistake. RTG gfx cards work with any monitor. Amiga native output requires a special monitor or a scandoubler. You've got an A3000 so you've already got a good scandoubler. All you need is a monitor with dual VGA inputs (or 1VGA and 1DVI-I + adapter) and you'll be fine switching using the monitors buttons. Obviously with most LCD monitors you will be limited to 60Hz (NTSC) screen modes in native resolution. 50Hz (PAL) modes through A3000 scandoubler don't work with most LCD monitors. If you don't already own your monitor : Try to get a 4:3 one instead of widescreen. Try to find one with a native resolution of 1024x768 then you'll be able to run RTG at native resolution and get a better picture. Try to find one which supports Vertical Refresh as low as 50.0 Hz if you want to use PAL. Double check that Horizontal Refresh rates are 31.5KHz and above. Last edited by alexh; 14 July 2010 at 00:42.

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12 July 2010, 19:42	#22
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	you know I might just look into writing a patch for Warp3D for S3 ViRGE chipsets... hmmm need to find the SD3D dev kit...

12 July 2010, 23:35	#23
source Zone Friend Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 734	I would double check, but I think if you get a mediator and one of the radeon cards with say 256 megs, you would be able to patition the memory so that you can use say 32 megs for video, and the remainder can be for system memory. You get a fast video card and memory expantion in one go. I would double check that though. I have one of the new cards, but I am still reassembling my 4000T. I have not been able to set it up yet.

13 July 2010, 13:43	#26
brett71 Registered User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ames, IA, USA Posts: 521	Thank you all for your advice and the discussion about various cards and capabilities have been fascinating. I'm not really all that interested in trying to play any 3D games on my 3000....that's what I have my PC for and I doubt they'll be making an Amiga client for World of Warcraft anytime soon. hehehehe Basically, I was just looking for a decent add-in video card that would allow me to have some high-color screen modes for Workbench or apps and maybe make better use of an LCD monitor than just the 3000's built-in flickerfixer. Unfortunately, it seems like all the Z3 cards mentioned earlier are fairly hard to come by, unless you're constantly lurking in the Marketplace or similar forums on Amibay or Amiga.org... I've seen a couple of the aforementioned cards come up on those sites, but they're usually snapped up within minutes.

13 July 2010, 18:34	#28
brett71 Registered User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ames, IA, USA Posts: 521	I've gotten some leads on a couple of options for graphics cards.... Both cards I've located do not appear to have pass-throughs for the Amiga native video, unlike some older cards. Is this much of a problem, or am I looking at maybe having to run a 2-monitor system, like if I wanted to play a game or something that doesn't take advantage of the add-in graphics card?

13 July 2010, 18:39	#29
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,355	Pass-through on RTG is pretty useless. Modern monitors do not sync that low. You will need a scandoubler too whatever you do. Most modern monitors have dual inputs so you could hook up both RTG & Native (via a scandoubler) and switch by pressing the menu buttons. (Not nice but cheap). If you bought a UK/EU 4:3 LCDTV they have an RGB scandoubler built-in plus a VGA connection for RTG. Add up the cost of the RTG gfx card + scandoubler and you'd be better off looking for a Picasso IV which also has an automatic monitor switcher built in.

13 July 2010, 18:46	#30
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@brett71 As you have an A3000 you will automatically have a 31Khz scandoubled and flicker fixer output on the back of the machine ( courtesy of the Amber Chip) I beleive that this is an active output even during WHDLoad / NDOS games You can combine this 15pin VGA output with a small $10 VGA Monitor Swticher and have both the A3000 Video out and the Graphics Card Video out into the VGA swtich box and then plumb that to a Good Quality CRT/TFT unit that can Sync as low as 31.5KHZ (most CRT's should there are some TFT's that cannot thought so read the specs of the display unit before you get one)

13 July 2010, 19:04	#31
brett71 Registered User Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ames, IA, USA Posts: 521	So, to use one of these graphics cards, I would have to buy a special monitor? I wouldn't be able to use an off-the-shelf LCD monitor with it? Or am I getting myself completely confused? How does the monitor switcher on the Picasso IV work?

14 July 2010, 05:57	#33
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@brett71 In regards to the Picasso IV, its big selling point is the auto-switching from scan-doubled/de interlaced native amiga video to the graphics card and back again. this is done in the software and hardware of the card. - there is no pass-though needed as it takes the video signal from the Video Slot on the Daughter Board. However as you have an A3000 you already have a scan doubled / de-interlaced (flicker fixed) 31.5KHz video output - so this will go straight to the CRT/LCD monitor (make sure it supports the refresh rates that Alexh mentions - most CRT's should but double check) in regards to the graphics card the Picasso IV is a very sought (hence expensive) card - infact it would probably be as expensive to get a PCI mediator and Radeon 9250 (256MB) graphics card in the A3000. Personally though I would suggest a Good Picasso 2 / Cybervision or Picollo SD64 graphics adapter as this will be much cheaper - the former of which has an automatic software swiching pass though so you can just pug-in your 31.5KHz video signal from the 15pin VGA out of the A3000 into it. This for the most part essentially gives you the same functionallity* as the PIV for a fraction of the cost *please note the Picasso IV can also be upgraded with a sound card / tv tuner and video encoder.

15 July 2010, 02:44	#35
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	wow... I thought there was a Mediator A3000Di.... I was agasped so I checked Elbox and as sure as rain is wet - there is no A3000Di mediator, just a tower version like you said. however interestingly - the A3000D mediator uses the PCI 4000 Core Logic card - is the mediator 40000Di busboard different?

15 July 2010, 21:34	#37
rkauer I hate potatos and shirts Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sao Leopoldo / Brazil Age: 58 Posts: 3,482	I was thinking on how different are the A3k & A4k daughterboards, electronically-wise. If I manage to hook up the 4k daughterboard to the 3k it is only a matter of making a metal top cover replacement...

24 July 2010, 00:36	#38
merlinkv Amiga user since 1989 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Spain Age: 60 Posts: 119	From Elbox site: "The minimum hardware configuration is: Amiga 3000D in tower case." I think a big server case with some modfications is a nice solution (and not difficult to find). But as Alexh said, if you try to install on a desktop case.... you couldn't put the lid. About the tower installation: http://www.elbox.com/ma/m_3000d_fold...3000d_qig.html The price is 319 Euro with Radeon 9200 256MB (No PayPal). Not a cheap extension board, but with lot of possibilities (I mind).

27 July 2010, 14:30	#39
utri007 mä vaan Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Finland Posts: 1,655	GVP spectrum is much better 1. It supports Zorro III, picasso II doesn't. At least little bit faster because that 2. It has a passthrough, with it you get real one monitor solutin. With picasso you need second monitor or at least second input

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