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Old 07 December 2017, 12:43   #501
Steril707
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After cooling down a bit, I now want to write a few things...
And I think this really belongs in this thread, because these are the things that makes homebrewing for the Amiga so difficult..

First off, the Amiga is hard to develop for.

It's hard to learn all the importnant stuff about DMACON, Bitplane setups, memory management, bitplane Modulos, blit modulos, Minterms, and all these other weird things.

There are like a hundred different things you can do wrong before you have even blitted something to the screen.

And then, you are not developing for one platform, you will have people with a thousand different setups trying to get your game running.

I tested this Christmas game on FS-UAE and an Amiga 1000(with ACA500plus). Seemed to work there. I am aware of that small graphics bug with the higher up standing enemy, but thought it#s okay to release it like this, because frankly I was a bit tired debugging glitches by the end.

Even if you say "hey, this is a short game written for OCS 512K&512K slow" you will have people, like our Neill79 here who probably didn't read this, and will start the game on AGA, and wonder why there are so many graphics bugs. Or wonder why the game is short.

Next, you will have this written by someone on some blog with images of these bugs, and it will kind of irk you, I promise.

You can then start writing something that prohibits all other setups. Which is a lot of work, but probably unavoidable.

Which brings me to my point. I need to work easily ten times harder to get something out on the Amiga than on the C64 or the Vectrex (and even the Atari VCS, which by no means is an easy to develop for console).

On the other side you then have these folks, who think every game coded for the Amiga needs to be the second coming of christ, like those two wankers on youtube probably do.

The christmas game was intended a short gag present for the community.
I think the graphics are well done, and for what it is, it's okay. The music is kind of going on the nerves, but that was kind of the point of it. originally I wanted "last christmas" in it, but that didn't loop so well...

Anyway, I will take a break from Amiga coding for a while.

Have a good time, EAB...
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Old 07 December 2017, 13:42   #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
[...]
And then, you are not developing for one platform, you will have people with a thousand different setups trying to get your game running.
[...]
Mind you, I'm not a coder, but this could probably be a non-problem: if your game is bootable from a generic WHDLoad slave, maybe you could distribute a specific ECS/AGA version which in fact is only your base game bundled together with WHDLoad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post

[...]

Anyway, I will take a break from Amiga coding for a while.

Have a good time, EAB...
Well, that's pretty disappointing to read to say the least, but we can only respect your decision, hoping you'll eventually find the motivation to get back to your extremely promising Inviyya game.
Viel GlŁck und frohe Weihnachten, Michael!
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Old 07 December 2017, 13:55   #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
The christmas game was intended a short gag present for the community.
I think the graphics are well done, and for what it is, it's okay. The music is kind of going on the nerves, but that was kind of the point of it. originally I wanted "last christmas" in it, but that didn't loop so well...
I like the idea of the game. Graphics are okay, music fits the theme and the scrolling is good.

Regarding the YouTube comments. Don't be mad bro. I've released much worse games before and probably because YouTube didn't exist back then I didn't got slammed so much. Today works shown on the Internet can get slammed for everything and I see it as part of the process. On my YouTube channel I receive almost daily dislikes and negative comments, mostly because of my non native English accent, mainly from Russians.

I hope nobody has the first version of Chips uploaded to Aminet with the garish Oric colors, that will be a PR disaster

Personally, last time I avoided the negativity by coding for the most obscure platform (Apple III). You can't get negativity if nobody sees your work. But if you receive comments, positive or negative, it means that you have audience that will be there for your next project. That's a good motivation to show You and the Amiga can do better.
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Old 07 December 2017, 14:01   #504
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This video says that 75 games were made for ...Amstrad CPC in 2016 and most of them are way better than anything on the Amiga at the same period. Funny but true.
I saw some of the new Amstrad CPC games and I see they are good candidates for Amiga ports, and since the authors are easily contactable, it's also easy to get hold of the source codes. When I ported some 8-bit games to the Amiga, first I do them with the original gameplay, graphics and even sounds/music, then I see what I can improve (mainly in the sound and graphics aspect, because most of the time the gameplay is perfect).
Here is an example of 8-bit game, remade for Amiga (initially on the Amiga it was with the 8-bit graphics), but as usual {ImBE} came fast with much appreciated help.

Original 8 bit game:
[ Show youtube player ]

Amiga conversion.
[ Show youtube player ]


Both done by me.
Having the source code helps a lot, in whatever language it is done. I use it mostly for the gameplay part, since converting the graphic/sound routines tends to be harder and sometimes unneeded.
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Old 07 December 2017, 16:23   #505
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I am very disappointed you decided to veer this way Steril707. I was very much looking forward to INviya as were other people, and I think taking this decision after two morons said some shit in YouTube is really detrimental to everyone. If you are trying to make a point, let me tell you that this decision hurts those who actually care and support people like you developing AMiga games, instead of the trolls who made the comments.

Let me comment on your post, probably you won't read it though
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
Even if you say "hey, this is a short game written for OCS 512K&512K slow" you will have people, like our Neill79 here who probably didn't read this, and will start the game on AGA, and wonder why there are so many graphics bugs. Or wonder why the game is short.

Next, you will have this written by someone on some blog with images of these bugs, and it will kind of irk you, I promise.

[...]

On the other side you then have these folks, who think every game coded for the Amiga needs to be the second coming of christ, like those two wankers on youtube probably do.

The christmas game was intended a short gag present for the community.
This is exactly what I meant when I said the game was probably improperly shown in that YouTube channel.

It was just a quick game you did for kicks and shared here, I don't think it should have been "blogged about" or "shown on Youtube" in the same way "commercial" titles are shown, because of course if you put it side by side with games that have been in development for a long time, there are huge differences.

But since the output in Amiga is low, anything gets pushed in the same way and, I think, damages it. Those who showcase Amiga games should take more care about what they do, how they do it, and how they frame games in the global context of the Amiga releases scene.

Talking about PD libraries back then, did EVERY PD game ever released get featured in a magazine? No. Granted, the release volume was much larger, but I think it was healthy to have a separation. A simple game like X-Atoms, which I really loved, would get no magazine review, but it was still a great little game I enjoyed from PD libraries. Reviewing it in the same way you do a commercial game is ludicrous.

The thing we have to embrace nowadays is that PD/Commercial has blurred in Amiga land, because there are just such few releases, and I hope those who showcase games on retro platforms would do more curating and less volume, and are able to frame games in the best possible light as not to hurt them or the developers behind them.

For example I helped Shatterhand out with Quasarius making music. You even think I give a shit about any of the YouTube comments? Look at this video's comments:
[ Show youtube player ]
Shatterhand comments himself taking the high ground, and this is the attitude we should have.
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Old 07 December 2017, 18:02   #506
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Hi there Steril707,

I don't comment very often nowadays but I have to say I enjoyed your game although I haven't getting very far as I am too sluggish in my responses (not the game it's me). I would probably be better using a joystick though, sorry to hear you have had a couple of bad comments on YT but I have enjoyed playing the game so far and as long as you enjoyed making it and sharing it, that is what really matters.

There is NO way I could do what you have and produce a working game and there are a great many of folk just like me. Be proud of your achievement and don't let anyone make you feel bad and remember that we can all be critics about a lot things but it doesn't mean we could actually do what we criticise.

All the very best and keep programming
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Old 07 December 2017, 22:18   #507
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I have no idea why Steril is taking a few opinions on Youtube to heart.

It doesnt matter if you have the best code, graphics and music. Someone somewhere will still think its shit.

I released a beta version of a game I wrote a long time ago, and whilst people thought it was ok, it never advanced beyond that because no-one was interested.

I just took it on the chin, someone suggested it was lame, meh, whatever.

The secret is to just not give a shit. You see, commentators on Youtube are morons, they have zero clue as to what it entails to match somrthing like Turrican or Hybris, so why care what they think?

Some comments on Youtube about When Time Stood Still the ST conversion I did, were pitiful.

Fuck em.

If you enjoy what youre doing, keep on doing it, and if you cant handle a bit of criticism (in amongst the shit is helpful stuff), just realise you are stuck with it, and simply move onwards.
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Old 07 December 2017, 23:27   #508
Shatterhand
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Quote:
Shatterhand comments himself taking the high ground, and this is the attitude we should have.
I actually know (well, online) the guy who made that comment , he has a blog about shmups and he is pretty stupid most of the time, I went in an argument with him once in a facebook group I own, where his attitude was like "There's only one way to review a game, a game is either good or bad, there's no personal opinion about this" which of course also meant "And I know what makes a game good or bad, anyone who disagrees with me is wrong".

How can you take the argument of someone like this seriously? I still don't know if he knew it was me who made the game (and then was trying to hit me personally), or was just slagging the game because "he knows better blah blah blah", I couldn't care less



I've been trying to make games since I was like 10 years old (I am 34 now), I've done games for the MSX, PC and now am doing Amiga ones. Except by two games that I was paid to code, I've always offered my games for free. And yes, for every "Wow, it's pretty cool you are actually able to make a computer game", I get 10 "Your game is stupid, awful, looks like shit, why don't you make a new GTA V but better?" sort of comment from people who have no idea of what it takes to make a game.

And sometimes, very rarely. you get some nice criticism (like Graham Humphrey wrote about Quasarius on the Amiga Future magazine. He wrote a lot of criticisms about the game and I couldn't agree more with him in all his points, yet it was amazing to see an article about a game I did in a printed magazine )

But I agree with what has been said here, Steril, and I hope you read this. Many people would love to see what you have to do for the system. Trolls will always be around and saying this about stuff they don't understand. We really shouldn't care about it. If you love doing stuff, do it. If people like it, even better, If they don't, well, you loved doing it, so it's ok
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Old 08 December 2017, 00:05   #509
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@Steril707: I know very well how hurting is to read bad comments about your work and you've probably lost something like spontaneity and motivation.
But, your space shooter seems very good. I mean it's too bad. Really.
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Old 08 December 2017, 04:53   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
It's hard to learn all the important stuff about DMACON, Bitplane setups, memory management, bitplanes.Modulos,blitmodulos,Minterms,and all these other weird things.
I seen you commented having over ten years of homebrew programming with different systems,I also have 15+ years in assembly programming and have programmed c64,master system,nes ect.. and the amiga is the most difficult I have ever programmed"learning all this does take time and a lot of practice" I agree with you and most people don't understand that or have had years of experience on the amiga before us.Most are very helpful here which is 100% appreciated,thank you gentlemen.Only the most dedicated programmers need to apply here on amiga programming,this system is not for the easily discouraged that's for sure Reminds me of a quote from 300 movie...Only The Hard,Only The Strong.



You have a lot of support from members here Steril707 and as a fellow programmer you have my support as I know what it takes to program a game.I respect your decision and hope to see you back coding amiga soon buddy.

Last edited by OmegaMax; 08 December 2017 at 05:41.
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Old 09 December 2017, 12:02   #511
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Amiga chipset was extremely complicated machinery for running games from year 1983.
It differs in many, many things from everything what was before and after.
If You have money and do not need to work, and You want and may spend year or two on learning what more than one hundred registers of amiga chipset do, it is for You.
It will be like fulltime job, to learn registers, copper, blitter, sprite engine.
Only for making 2D games. But if You enjoy that, it is no problem.
If not forget about retro on amiga, use amiga ng, it is still amiga but much simpler to develop software for.
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Old 09 December 2017, 13:39   #512
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Nobody was forced to use ASM or direct access the hardware. I think they just used the way they knew from the older hardware were no software interface existed as far as I know. The more advanced/complicated the system becomes the less practical it is to bang the hardware.
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Old 09 December 2017, 15:45   #513
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yes of course, if You want to make yet another amos/backbone crap.
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Old 09 December 2017, 16:47   #514
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yes of course, if You want to make yet another amos/backbone crap.
Not at all - firstly AMOS/Blitz could produce very professional stuff in the right hands (Backbone cannot, at least not for stock Amiga 500/600) but you can code games using system library calls to handle most of the graphics. Many did back in the day, especially PD. Amiga BASIC was bloody awful though.
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Old 09 December 2017, 17:47   #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
The christmas game was intended a short gag present for the community.
I think the graphics are well done, and for what it is, it's okay. The music is kind of going on the nerves, but that was kind of the point of it. originally I wanted "last christmas" in it, but that didn't loop so well...

Anyway, I will take a break from Amiga coding for a while.

Have a good time, EAB...
Sad to hear Steril707 -if this mean anything i even smiled during watching your Xmas game - yes, there was some problems but graphics, music and overall impression was good - definitely good candidate. So take a brake, don't care about toxic comments and don't give-up! Meanwhile have a nice Christmas and Happy New Year!
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Old 09 December 2017, 23:06   #516
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If someone can't do it better himself he should probably refrain of commenting other peoples productions in a non-constructive or offending way.
This is from my perspective valid for this forum as well as for every other site on the net.
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Old 10 December 2017, 04:01   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
The christmas game was intended a short gag present for the community.
On PC, these sorts of non-commercial games for the sake of it, are encouraged. But on the Amiga, as you hinted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
...
think every game coded for the Amiga needs to be the second coming of Christ
The "Gods" did set the bar high. But unlike Prometheus, they didn't show us how to do the real "magic".

Fortunately we have tools to reverse-engineer (though that too doesn't immediately make it apparent how the trick was performed ), and we are blessed to have Legends among us in the forum who can show us the way .

They say artists are their own worst critic, so to hear criticism from others must sound like confirmation for the "worst critic" .

That's why I think any one who attempts to make a game for the Commodore-Amiga in this day and age is worth a cheer!

I for one am glad that you decided to make a public domain game for the holidays.
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Old 10 December 2017, 06:56   #518
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Letís make 2017 ďthe year of Amiga home brewĒ

I think with even the stuff we know is in the pipeline itís looking like a great year (Xmas 2016 included).

Just off the top of my head:

Powerglove
Reshoot R
Alar City
Dream of Rowan
Scourge of the Underkind


And there is bound to be lots of stuff I havenít mentioned/we donít know about.

Iím excited!
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Old 10 December 2017, 11:31   #519
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If you love doing stuff, do it. If people like it, even better, If they don't, well, you loved doing it, so it's ok
You nailed it here Shatterhand. You should be doing it because it makes you happy not anyone else, that way you will get on fine. It takes me back to childhood to be using an Amiga in anyway possible. To sit at it tweaking code no matter how bad I am at it will always bring a smile to my face.
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