07 February 2019, 15:00 | #741 | |
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* deepl translation but not sure about this word in UK as the Oxford dictionary doesn't know it. In FR : "margoulin" (Individu peu scrupuleux en affaires). |
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07 February 2019, 15:31 | #742 |
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07 February 2019, 15:41 | #743 | |
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Cloanto had been granted a lot of rights to support, including patching classic OS releases from the Amiga companies: (This is directly from one of the court documents.)
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07 February 2019, 15:45 | #744 | |
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Incorrect, the court documents as well as the press releases from Hyperion at the time of the settlement indicate they only had exclusive rights for development and marketing of Amiga OS 4+. They had limited rights to the classic sources to ensure backwards compatibility in OS4+, not for wholesale ownership of all Amiga Inc's IP. |
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07 February 2019, 15:49 | #745 |
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Re:any linked articles not current or of personal opinion related to Commodore IP
If not entirely on topic, I apologize in advance, but since Commodore has been brought into these discussions so many times, it may be relevant. Although I believe that adding any discussion of the C= side of things will merely distract from the current conversation here (and honestly it's a bigger can of worms), I decided to offer what is current. Hopefully this clarifies anything you might have read in articles making contrary claims. What happened here is that the court ruled on the particular trademark CBM and most folks didn't follow what occurred after that. original filing and responses for reference As I understand it, it is quite rare for someone to file suit against euipo itself for decisions it has made. Nevertheless, the next event in sequence illustrates that when euipo finally publishes who owns a trademark...that might not necessarily be the end of the process. C = Holdings BV vs European Union Intellectual Property Office (EUIPO) Then the following appeared: ...saves commodore registration Hope this helps. #6 |
07 February 2019, 15:57 | #746 | |
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Cloanto's list of the dates they started doing things doesn't mean they necessarily had the rights to do those things, that's why there is a court case on. |
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07 February 2019, 16:16 | #747 |
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07 February 2019, 16:30 | #748 | |
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07 February 2019, 16:55 | #749 |
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The problem from Cloanto´s point of view is that the settlement agreement is not a simple contract between two parties, but the payment for a debt Amiga Inc had with Hyperion due to the OS4 port, recognized by a court judge.
As said, this agreement is ratified by a judge and was not challenged when it was possible. So it legally stands in court. It is now a public document. In the agreement Amiga Inc. recognizes the limited rights other parties had to their IP, including Cloanto, and grants certain specific rights to Hyperion as a form of payment. Cloanto knows this, and they just argument that the agreement does not say what it says literally. They said that the intentions of the agreement where other, and that they somehow got badly expressed on paper. Of course, Hyperion disagrees. When it comes to contracts/agreements, what matters legally is what it literally says, not what you or me, or my neighbour´s cat want to believe it says. More even when it is written in clear and simple language. Not only that, but Cloanto is trying to get the settlement agreement invalidated, which would be certainly very difficult, because it holds little to no explicit obligations towards Hyperion (it was expected to be like that since it was a payment for a debt). No obligations means little to no penalties. Trademark infringements and IP missuse if proven, cannot cause the settlement to become invalid. They can only cause other non related consequences/penalties (like separate trials/fines/compensations for those specific events). And yet, these companies will have to prove proper IP/trademark ownership and licensing (there is no publicly available known legal document that state this, only claims), whilst Hyperion already has their rights proven by a judge under the settlement agreement, and this document is public. And then how much compensation can you ask for someone selling aprons, when you do not sell anything yourself? Where is your loss of revenue? You can only argument damage of your brand, but then it will be difficult to prove that since you dont sell anything yourself. So if it is based on arguments alone, I see Cloanto getting the shortest end of the stick in this matter. But then, many times lawsuits are won by technicalities and not by the core arguments. |
07 February 2019, 17:04 | #750 | |
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Amiga Inc's agreements with Cloanto pre-date the settlement agreement and are entirely seperate. There are statements corroborating Cloanto's rights from Amiga Inc, but I'm not about to go wading through all the documentation to find the relevent passages at the moment. |
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07 February 2019, 17:53 | #751 | ||
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It is very clearly stated in that agreement that Amiga Inc is the owner. Quote:
I do not agree with you on that Cloanto gets the shortest end here, I rather think they will reach some sort of agreement. |
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07 February 2019, 18:14 | #752 | |
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07 February 2019, 18:46 | #753 | |
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In the settlement agreement both terms are explicitly defined as not being the same. Code refers to a more human readable form often but not exclusively in a higher programing language. Binary refers to the compiled code suitable for machine execution. one may have different view or definition, but that is what the relevant parties here agreed on. |
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07 February 2019, 21:50 | #754 | |||
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All of Hyperion´s rights are based in that agreeement. They havent challenged it and will most likely never do it. The problem is not who is the owner, the problem is who has rights to do certain things. Quote:
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And I hope you are right and they solve all disputes with an agreeement. I just see them both prepared to destroy the other. |
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07 February 2019, 22:14 | #755 | |
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You can read this agreement both ways - and that is why it is taken to court now. The intention of the settlement agreement was certainly not to grant Hyperion full rights to the modification and distribution of 3.x - at least not from Amiga Inc's point of view. And Hyperions press release directly after the agreement shows the Hyperion was very aware of this. So why did they wait all this years? Why didn't they start to sell the (unmodified) kickstart right away? Hyperion was obviously waiting for the "right time", hoping Amiga Inc. being defunct ore otherwise incapable to react. And without Cloanto they would have been. |
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07 February 2019, 22:17 | #756 |
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07 February 2019, 22:56 | #757 |
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Surely a better way to resolve this dispute would be a winner takes all game of Sensible Soccer.
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07 February 2019, 23:04 | #758 | |
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Hyperions actions at the time show that they very well understood and agreed with the terms of the agreement, it's only recently they started to overstep their mark. I suspect that the death of the Next-Gen Amiga pretty much killed OS4+ sales stone dead, and with Amiga Inc apparently dormant they thought they could get away with taking the resurgent classic market for their own, pretty much as you said. Apparently Hyperion's 2017 sales totaled about 36,000 dollars - hardly a healthy business. Even if people see Cloanto as evil or bad or greedy or lazy, at least they've shown a willingness to engage and talk with the community. |
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07 February 2019, 23:05 | #759 | |||
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Context is provided withtin the document and court ruling, and language is clear. Quote:
What Amiga Inc thinks now does not matter. It mattered when they agreed to the settlement, and they did not dispute it. In fact they agreed and signed. That is what matters. Quote:
Hyperion simply chose the path to what they believed was more profitable: delivering a next generation OS4 based on PPC hardware. And back then, that was a good move from a business point of view. I dont see that profit strategy being good anymore for several reasons. |
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07 February 2019, 23:18 | #760 | |
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It really works. |
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