Individual Computers - New accelerator cards for A600 & A1200

[Amiga1992]

I think Jens delivers a LOT as a product developer in ways of customer support, to have to cater for the wishes of an extremely small minority in a way that can only be described as 'artisan'-like.
It's great of him that he even takes time to answer to such propositions. He's too nice. Don't burn him.

Let the guy do what he wants to do, he's making awesome products.
By the way, memory for CD32?....

[roy bates]

Originally Posted by Akira

I think Jens delivers a LOT as a product developer in ways of customer support, to have to cater for the wishes of an extremely small minority in a way that can only be described as 'artisan'-like.
It's great of him that he even takes time to answer to such propositions. He's too nice. Don't burn him.

Let the guy do what he wants to do, he's making awesome products.
By the way, memory for CD32?....

yes i know im not the most positive person on the planet,but lets face it. we are all a small minority

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by roy bates

yes i know im not the most positive person on the planet,but lets face it. we are all a small minority

Some people call it being realistic. And i havent really seen any "negatives" from you, just a realistic take on the positives.
B!

[roy bates]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Some people call it being realistic. And i havent really seen any "negatives" from you, just a realistic take on the positives.
B!

i'm just admitting to other post's in other threads where i say things i cant take back,because thats the way i felt at the time.being human doesent make me any wiser

i dont dislike jens(or anyone else for that matter) its just i dont understand some things that have happened in the past,which are probably best left alone.(and no i dont expect jens to be answerable for anything and i dont want to re-hash that at all)

[DonMac]

New to the forum so: Hi everyone

Yesterday I received the ACA1231 from Vesalia. It is a version with the new heatsink mounted.

After installing the card and watch some demos I experienced the first guru 8000 0002 message. This is after about 15 minutes. After a reboot it happened more frequently so I turned the a1200 off.

I reinserted the ACA1231 but after some time the same issues occurred.

I did a lot of research since yesterday (also on a1k.org but my german is worse than my english) and found there are still some problems with the card.

The thing is that when playing a demo/game there are no problems. But after returning to the ClassicWB (v27) the guru's appear. I did preform a new installation on a spare CF card in the hope there was a software error. No luck.

The mainboard is a Rev.B version and the E123C and E125C timerfixes are nor present on the board.

Is it just an incompatible board or is there any hope for a fix?

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by DonMac

After installing the card and watch some demos I experienced the first guru 8000 0002 message. This is after about 15 minutes. After a reboot it happened more frequently so I turned the a1200 off.

Ahaaa! That's a very valuable hint, thank you very much. This points to a premature trigger of the ACA1231's watchdog, which gives a bus error in order to let the card continue to work, although an unsupported function code is being put on the external bus.

What screenmode are you using on your WB?

Jens

[DonMac]

Hi Jens,

Glad to help. Hope we can give you enough hints for the solution

The screenmode is plain old: PAL:High Res

Never tried it on a higher resolution. I will try that this evening.

Also the guru's appear when exiting to the ClassicWB. Not while playing a game or demo.

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by DonMac

The screenmode is plain old: PAL:High Res

Never tried it on a higher resolution. I will try that this evening.

Higher resolution will not enable more DMA slots, but more colours will. How many colours are you using?

Jens

[DonMac]

Resolution is : 640 x 256
Colours are set to 256

[Photon]

Originally Posted by Akira

By the way, memory for CD32?....

Don't burn him!! Hehe.


Schoenfeld, thanks for responding

Hm... you have thoroughly explained how EU directives makes CPU cards with CPU and memory sockets impossible. You may have your own reasons for saying this, but if it were not false, zero instead of millions of motherboards for PCs, server blades, etc etc would be sold each year in the EU.

You exaggerated my meaning to say no warranty. But like a motherboard manufacturer, you would simply declare compliance with certain standards and guarantee the board and the components on it. (Now, don't get me wrong. I know you don't have the turnaround of a PC store and local stores handle the warranty stuff on behalf of the manufacturer, etc.)

I think most Amiga users approve of your product decisions and understand we have to pay a premium to get specialty hardware. At the same time we're understanding towards the hardware and software fixes for the products and follow your development with great interest, and I think you handle the warranties professionally.


The reason for asking for socketed CPU and memory is a totally different one.

An Amiga hardware future.

With such extremely hard to find, soldered RAMs as yours and soldered CPUs, when the warranty is out a failing card is dead and useless. If someone hasn't made a replacement card, big memory and CPU usable for relatively modern applications is out of the question. When that happens, the Amiga will be like the other home computers and retro consoles - usable only for retro stuff until the mobo fails.

Now, retro is fine with me but expandability kept alive will extend the interest in the platform for serious use, which is important. And I don't mean being able to kinda surf the web or kinda play a short specially prepared movie or song. I mean newly developed programs, the life of a platform is defined by this. With 80s specs, only the same type of programs can be made, but with more modern specs, new types of programs can be made.

I love the big memory of the ACA models! But in terms of specs they are less modern than f.ex. my PPS040. Part of 'modern specs' is to be able to go to a store and buy memory. While losing 1%, 5% or 10% of the speed of the 68060 because of some first-access wait state does not make it less modern.

I wouldn't mind if you supplied the cards with new 512MB DDR RAM and used, tested 68060. As long as I could replace them easily if they fail, my beloved old platform would retain its expanded modern specs. I'd love a comment on how you feel about this!

If the used CPU (as 68060 can't be bought new) is a problem I have a business idea from the 70s on how they solved it then. But this is a tall enough wall of text for now I think.

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by Photon

Hm... you have thoroughly explained how EU directives makes CPU cards with CPU and memory sockets impossible.

Impossible for me and my resellers to handle, yes.

Originally Posted by Photon

You may have your own reasons for saying this, but if it were not false, zero instead of millions of motherboards for PCs, server blades, etc etc would be sold each year in the EU.

With quantities high enough that the stuff is counted in sea freight containers, not "number of units". In that market, you have actual stores where customers can walk into and ask a technician. I don't know about GGS Data in Sweden - do they have a store with proper hours and stuff? If they don't, then ASB computer in Spain is the only one where you can walk into with your Amiga in a bag and drop it off with the words "please repair - the caps must be replaced".

Further, all those PC mainboards have ZIF sockets. I tried to get those in PGA18, but was not successful. This leaves us with the 800-EUR puller tool.

Originally Posted by Photon

You exaggerated my meaning to say no warranty. But like a motherboard manufacturer, you would simply declare compliance with certain standards and guarantee the board and the components on it.

So I declare compatibility and have to deal with used and not-known-good-CPUs, inserted and extracted without the proper tools? And I have to deal with the fake print on the 68060 CPUs of DCE-made Blizzard cards?

Originally Posted by Photon

With such extremely hard to find, soldered RAMs as yours

Granted, it's 200MHz types, but I won't slow down just because you want to use the memories unsoldered from a DSL router (yes, they're the same pinout and mostly the same size).

Originally Posted by Photon

and soldered CPUs,

Not planned.

Originally Posted by Photon

While losing 1%, 5% or 10% of the speed of the 68060 because of some first-access wait state does not make it less modern.

I beg to differ. I think it does make it more modern if you can run the processor at the speed that it can actually execute instructions. You are right about the performance gain from fast memory access: eliminating one waitstate from the first-access penalty gave about an 8.5% increase in speed for the ACA1231 (comparison to ACA1230-42 with the difference in CPU clock factored in).

Originally Posted by Photon

I wouldn't mind if you supplied the cards with new 512MB DDR RAM

Like I wrote earlier: DDR is out of the question for simple electrical reasons: I can't talk to it with a 5V-tolerant CPLD. I'd have to use an FPGA with multiple IO voltages, and I really don't want to do that.

Originally Posted by Photon

and used, tested 68060. As long as I could replace them easily if they fail,

Again: Wishful thinking. Do you have an idea why the PGA18 puller is so expensive? It's a "built to order" thing. The company made the first unit of this century for me.

Originally Posted by Photon

If the used CPU (as 68060 can't be bought new) is a problem I have a business idea from the 70s on how they solved it then. But this is a tall enough wall of text for now I think.

You might want to open a new thread for that, because this one is a news thread about the ACA1230, ACA630 and ACA1231.

Jens

[DonMac]

Jens,

I installed the CF card from my A600 (ACA630 + A604 and very stable) in the A1200 with ACA1231.
Same resolution but only 16 colour mode. The same guru 8000 0002 errors.

I installed the A1200 CWB CF card and I have put the colour range of the A1200 and ACA1231 to 16. After a while the same guru errors. Its reboots and after a few seconds, only opening the workbench partition, guru 8000 0002 task 081ab070. Repeating the actions results in the same guru but different tasks errors 081ab038 and 081bb6e8.

Hope this information helps.

[Schoenfeld]

the #2 guru indeed points to a bus error. Now let's find out if that bus error is caused by the watchdog triggering too soon, or by an error of the CPU seeing random bus errors.

Could you check with the CPU command if the computer sees an FPU (where in reality there is none)?

thanks,
Jens

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

I don't know about GGS Data in Sweden - do they have a store with proper hours and stuff? If they don't, then ASB computer in Spain is the only one where you can walk into with your Amiga in a bag and drop it off with the words "please repair - the caps must be replaced".

GGS-Data in Gothenburg (Göteborg, Sweden) Has a visitors address, and opening hours (10-18) But i would have to admit that i have NO idea as to if they could actually service your hardware if you drop it of. It's hardly relevant to this topic regardless. The fact remains, you as a manufacturer have to provide service and support, and it's simply not possible to provide at the minimum level required by law for a complex piece of hardware as a socketed bit of hardware would be. As it's not even providing any bonus features, it's not even a issue. I for one is more then convinced that we'll see more hardware coming from you, including accelerators. For those that want a 68060, there is a perfectly sane option. Buy a second hand unit. At least it's likely to come with the required CPU... To bad they will be Apollos, don't ya think? ;- )

Anyways, thank you for all your efforts, keep up the good work.
B!

[DonMac]

Output of the CPU command:
68030 (INST: Cache Burst) (DATA: Cache Burst)
This is with ACAtune -maprom ** -cache on -burst on

Also tried the maprom only option:
Output of the CPU command:
68030 (INST: Cache Burst) (DATA: Cache NoBurst)

With only the maprom function enabled I experience the same guru's after a while.
ACAtune version is 1.5e

[mfilos]

Why are you using double asterisk on maprom declaration? You have a physical 1MB Custom ROM installed in your Amiga?

[Schoenfeld]

I've had a lucky shot with the logic analyzer this morning. I'm nearly at the spot where I can provoke a false memory access (respectively a false access termination). It seems to be a statistical thing where Gayle fails, and some A1200 boards without timing mods trigger that Gayle fault more often.

non-technical: hang in there :-)

Jens

[christianlucio]

"After installing the card and watch some demos I experienced the first guru 8000 0002 message. This is after about 15 minutes. After a reboot it happened more frequently so I turned the a1200 off."
Exactly the same problem I have ! Only thing I can add: I have the feeling it occurs very often when opening a directory subfolder window. It has not occured during programs or games so far.

[DonMac]

Originally Posted by mfilos

Why are you using double asterisk on maprom declaration? You have a physical 1MB Custom ROM installed in your Amiga?

Really don't know

The original A1200 ROM is 512kb, but when I'm using "maprom *" the machine doesn't start. The machine has a kickrom switch (1.3 and 3.1). Think thats why I must use the 1mb option?

[DonMac]

Originally Posted by christianlucio

Exactly the same problem I have ! Only thing I can add: I have the feeling it occurs very often when opening a directory subfolder window. It has not occured during programs or games so far.

Thats it to the spot. Exact the same issues.