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Old 15 January 2019, 12:14   #561
pgovotsos
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From Thomas's last post I think I already know the answer but want to ask for definite answer. When the shell fix is released, will the Kickstart images be updated or will Setpatch be the only way to implement it?
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Old 15 January 2019, 13:05   #562
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From Thomas's last post I think I already know the answer but want to ask for definite answer. When the shell fix is released, will the Kickstart images be updated or will Setpatch be the only way to implement it?
This is a buisiness decision I cannot make. But there is no need to for a new ROM, so I doubt that there will be a new ROM - not for such an error.
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Old 15 January 2019, 14:18   #563
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This is a buisiness decision I cannot make. But there is no need to for a new ROM, so I doubt that there will be a new ROM - not for such an error.
There certainly is no need for a new ROM as long as sales for the old ones haven't dwindled away (and, gasp, as long as there may even be physical ROMs in stock!) - only THEN it will be time for a new release with bugfixes and a new release number. THAT is what businesses base their decisions on and which only in the minds of ultra-libertarians reflect the customers' interests.

This is another clear disadvantage of closed-source development models. In an open-source universe the bug would have been fixed already and, if the bugfix had been provided by a 3rd party, would have been scrutinised and potentially enhanced for less adverse sideeffects by the official maintainer.
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Old 15 January 2019, 14:32   #564
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Well - the OS3.x branch was now unmaintained for almost 20 years - the Kickstart itself even longer... so the closed source approach did not help at all.
On ythe contrary, it has helped immensely - to maintain OS stability and prevent it from being corrupted by well-meaning (and not-so well-meaning) contributors.

The proof? After 20 years we finally get a real update to OS3.1 - which introduces several new flaws.

OS3.5 (apparently no longer available) and OS3.9 are even worse, as they introduced new features that attempt to force users into 'upgrading' to them. Luckily the source code to OS3.9 has been lost...
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Old 15 January 2019, 14:55   #565
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After 20 years we finally get a real update to OS3.1 - which introduces several new flaws.
So how are OS3.5 and 3.9, which by any measure are more significant updates than OS3.1.4, not real updates, but OS3.1.4 is?

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OS3.5 (apparently no longer available) and OS3.9 are even worse, as they introduced new features
How dare they introduce new features in an upgrade to the OS!?! What bastards...

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Luckily the source code to OS3.9 has been lost...
What a stupid thing to say.
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Old 15 January 2019, 14:55   #566
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On ythe contrary, it has helped immensely - to maintain OS stability and prevent it from being corrupted by well-meaning (and not-so well-meaning) contributors.

The proof? After 20 years we finally get a real update to OS3.1 - which introduces several new flaws.

OS3.5 (apparently no longer available) and OS3.9 are even worse, as they introduced new features that attempt to force users into 'upgrading' to them. Luckily the source code to OS3.9 has been lost...
Definitely, why would anyone want to improve anything? If you'll excuse me, I need to go find the crank handle for my Model T Ford, as I imagine I may wish to go out later ...
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Old 15 January 2019, 14:58   #567
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The proof? After 20 years we finally get a real update to OS3.1 - which introduces several new flaws.
For me 3.1.4 remains a regression compared to the more advanced and functional OS3.9, you should use it a bit 'more OS 3.9 to realize its advanced operation.

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 15 January 2019, 15:06   #568
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Again, in regards of some of the previously linked document in this volatile thread, it's not so simple...
As a non-lawyer who is also not a native UK speaker I understand the following : Hyperion is allowed to release the OS they develop (knowing that it is based on 3.1) but owner of the original 3.1 OS is Amiga/Itec/Amino.
So Hyperion can release the OS they develop but they cannot release the 3.1 "as is" without modification. Again, help yourself and read the linked documents as I may have misunderstood terms that are formulated in a legal language.
But Hyperion has already released the 3.1 "as is". It was included on a previous release of the OS 4 CD ROM. They have also released mere updates to OS 3.1 (not a new version) and the "Kickstart" portion of OS 1.3. They have also used trademarks and copyrights to these Non-OS 4 versions which they have no rights to use.

Now, 3.1.4 just *might* qualify as a new version under the dubious definition of OS 4 but the version number just implies an update of OS 3.1 rather than a new version. So Hyperion continues to shoot themselves in the foot.
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Old 15 January 2019, 15:30   #569
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The proof? After 20 years we finally get a real update to OS3.1 - which introduces several new flaws.
Oh, right, because the bugs we have fixed count nothing. This is exactly the problem I have here. Several people making a big rumble about the bugs they found, and nobody is making a big rumble about the bugs in 3.1 anymore. Sometimes so severe that switching a graphics mode from productivity to an OCS mode on 3.1 can corrupt memory and you cannot boot from drives larger than 4GB, the size of a sub-average USB stick today.
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Old 15 January 2019, 15:38   #570
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Oh, right, because the bugs we have fixed count nothing. This is exactly the problem I have here. Several people making a big rumble about the bugs they found, and nobody is making a big rumble about the bugs in 3.1 anymore. Sometimes so severe that switching a graphics mode from productivity to an OCS mode on 3.1 can corrupt memory and you cannot boot from drives larger than 4GB, the size of a sub-average USB stick today.
Please rest assured that myself, and I'm sure many others, are grateful for the updates and the reduced number of patches and fixes required on our systems. Large drive support from cold is frankly excellent, makes things so much easier.
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Old 15 January 2019, 15:47   #571
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Oh, right, because the bugs we have fixed count nothing.
They do count. They count a minimum of € 29.95 for each copy for each machine.

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This is exactly the problem I have here. Several people making a big rumble about the bugs they found, and nobody is making a big rumble about the bugs in 3.1 anymore.
Of course no one is talking about over 25 years old bugs anymore, but about the bugs of a new product (that was supposed to fix bugs in the first place ...)
That can not really surprise you ...
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Old 15 January 2019, 15:52   #572
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I use the following ROMs with 3.1.4 -
http://amigakit.amiga.store/product_...oducts_id=1273

Am I still affected?
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Old 15 January 2019, 15:58   #573
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Of course no one is talking about over 25 years old bugs anymore, but about the bugs of a new product (that was supposed to fix bugs in the first place ...)
No, wrong. They were not "supposed to". They were. Full stop. This is precisely the difference.

Instead of being happy that things do move forward and the Os is in support again, with all the restrictions and obstacles in the way, beyond the possibility of a single person to fix, people *still* complain about the result.

So, can you please tell me why anyone should be stupid enough to develop anything with such users around?

I have on problem with Open source. If you want to move forward like this - just do. But by "just do" I mean as in "you actually have to work." I mean, "like yourself, personally". Not letting some other stupid guys do the work for you, sitting around complaining.
This is not a one-way road.
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Old 15 January 2019, 16:08   #574
malko
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But Hyperion has already released the 3.1 "as is". It was included on a previous release of the OS 4 CD ROM. [...]
I don't know as it's not present on the original copy I own. Maybe I bought it too late.

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[...] They have also used trademarks and copyrights to these Non-OS 4 versions which they have no rights to use. [...]
You substitute yourself for the judge with this statement. It's a step I wouldn't take, nor comment.

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Originally Posted by SpeedGeek
[...] Now, 3.1.4 just *might* qualify as a new version under the dubious definition of OS 4 but the version number just implies an update of OS 3.1 rather than a new version. So Hyperion continues to shoot themselves in the foot.
As vocabulary is a field we are all concerned (and there is no need to substitute to anybody ) we can argue a bit. But, as I don't like the term you use (dubious), let's use instead "unclear". Here is my understanding :

Some may consider unclear the below "dark blue" part because it's not clear how much of the code has to be changed. In this regard of non specified things, one bug fix would be enough to consider the bug fixed OS as new developed OS.

Some may consider clear the below "turquoise" part because the word irrespective cannot be interpreted. In this regard, an OS version 3.1.0.1 would be enough to consider the "one" bug fixed OS as new developed OS. No need to name it with a number higher than 4.

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"AmigaOS 4" means the Operating System developed by Hyperion and based in part on the Software, including without limitation the Software Architecture of the Software as described in the Documentation, in any version (irrespective of version numbering, e.g., AmigaOS 5)
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[...] So, can you please tell me why anyone should be stupid enough to develop anything with such users around? [...].
You are sadly right...
But please, don't give up, not all users are complaining
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Old 15 January 2019, 16:28   #575
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No, wrong. They were not "supposed to". They were. Full stop. This is precisely the difference.
Yes: old bugs got fixed.
But that is not all that happened - the team did not leave it there, but wanted to introduce new features.
While this is a noble approach, it is also somewhat questionable for a supposed bug-fix release.
And so it happened that new bugs where introduced.

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Instead of being happy that things do move forward and the Os is in support again, with all the restrictions and obstacles in the way, beyond the possibility of a single person to fix, people *still* complain about the result.
If I buy a commercial product and something is not working as it should, this is a reason for a complaint.
Simple as that.

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So, can you please tell me why anyone should be stupid enough to develop anything with such users around?
Sounds to me like victim blaming.
"How dare my customers to actually demand a working product!"

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I have on problem with Open source. If you want to move forward like this - just do. But by "just do" I mean as in "you actually have to work." I mean, "like yourself, personally". Not letting some other stupid guys do the work for you, sitting around complaining.
This is not a one-way road.
(I suppose you meant "no" and not "one" here)
I did and I still do support open source software actively. By bounty, by buying physical media releases, by bug reports and even by commits where I am able to do so.

But as some members of the "team" now said more than once:
You did not get paid by Hyperion, did you? But still Hyperion is now charging money for someone else's work...
So actually you are now on that "one-way road", aren't you?

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Not letting some other stupid guys do the work for you, sitting around complaining.
From every customers point of view:
They did pay for a product - they were not "sitting around", because everyone works to earn money and to buy other things with that hard earned money.
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Old 15 January 2019, 16:33   #576
Steril707
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
So, can you please tell me why anyone should be stupid enough to develop anything with such users around?

I have on problem with Open source. If you want to move forward like this - just do. But by "just do" I mean as in "you actually have to work." I mean, "like yourself, personally". Not letting some other stupid guys do the work for you, sitting around complaining.
This is not a one-way road.
You are hitting the nail on the head here, Thomas..

Otherwise we would have hundreds of people working on AROS in their free time.
The truth is, the actual count is more akin to zero..

What we are seeing here in real time is why the Amiga has no developers left anymore.


add/edit: Wow, some people have obviously never worked in software dev here before. There is no software that doesn't have bugs in it. And yes, new features means new bugs. You can test as much as you want, you won't get something completely bug free. Especially not with a niche software product as Amiga OS is.
If the alternative here is no new Amiga OS, then I prefer to have a release with some bugs in it that get tracked and rid of in future updates.
if you can't handle that, code for AROS or pay some money to the devs who do. Oh, you didn't and that's why nobody is left there to code on it anymore?

Too bad.

Last edited by Steril707; 15 January 2019 at 16:43.
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Old 15 January 2019, 16:40   #577
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@Steril707:

I'd be happy to work on improving OS3.9 or OS4.1FE as they are the actual leading edge AmigaOSes; working on OS3.1 or AROS seems pointless especially if reimplementing what's missing, and thus getting them up to par with the leading edge versions, isn't the focus.

Last edited by Minuous; 15 January 2019 at 16:49.
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Old 15 January 2019, 16:46   #578
Thomas Richter
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If I buy a commercial product and something is not working as it should, this is a reason for a complaint.
Simple as that.
That is why there will be an update. I do not have a problem with releasing updates as well.

But realistically: What *real* problem did you have with? As in "this particular thing did not work for me".

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I did and I still do support open source software actively. By bounty, by buying physical media releases, by bug reports and even by commits where I am able to do so.
No, I did not mean "whom did you pay". For this particular type of transaction, it does not matter whether there is an "Open" or "Closed" sticker slammed on the package. You pay (as part of a transaction, or as part of a bounty), and you get something in return (with, or without warranty). Only the label is different. Should we write "Open AmigaOs 3.2" on the next package to satisfy you, then? And call it a "bounty" instead of "a price"? Would that work for you any better?

What I meant is really that: "What did you actually develop." As in "you, yourself, personally". In case this wasn't clear to begin with:

*THIS* is what open source is about. Doing the work yourself. You, actually, personally.


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So actually you are now on that "one-way road", aren't you?
I did that because *I WANTED THAT THING TO HAPPEN*. Not because I was paid for it.

So, who is really supporting things here, eh?
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Old 15 January 2019, 16:48   #579
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@Steril707:

In my case I'd be happy to work on improving OS3.9 or OS4.1FE as they are the actual leading edge AmigaOSes; working on OS3.1 or AROS seems pointless especially if reimplementing what's missing, and thus getting it up to par with the leading edge versions, isn't the focus.
AROS is an open source implementation that aims to a replacement to AOS 3.1. and has an 68k branch.

Sorry if that's not fancy enough for you to do something for the community.
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Old 15 January 2019, 16:51   #580
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@Steril707:

No, it's not enough. I have zero interest in OS3.1 or any clone of it.
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