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Old 21 November 2007, 21:20   #1
AMIGrAve
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Classic Workbench installation on real amiga without Windows. Possible ?

Hi all,

<not_forced_to_read_this>
Now that I purchased a CF card <-> IDE adapter, I'm exhuming my Amiga(s). I included some friends in my fad and my goal right now is to make a clean setup that will fits both needs. I'm more a shell guy (using amiga csh actually with filemaster) and my friends prefers workbench.
I knew the existance of preconfigured setups like Amiga in a box, ... but when searching back for a cool preinstalled workbench, my attention was caught by ClassicWB because the description says that the focus was about keeping things light on memory and speed. The screenshots are very promizing and it seems that BloodWych made (and still making !important) a really good job. That's why I'm here.
</not_forced_to_read_this>


And now I would like to install ClassicWB on my amiga so I have two questions :

1) what is the difference between Lite and Full ? (I read nearly all pages of http://classicwb.abime.net/ but I don't know exactly what are the differences)

2) How can I get the System.zip file required to launch an installation on a real amiga if I have not windows ?
After reading the steps on this page :
http://classicwb.abime.net/classicweb/instructions.htm
about "Creating "System.zip" in WinUAE", I came into the problem that I can't use WinUAE. So I tried with e-uae (linux) but the hardfile2 option requires the geometry of the virtual HD which I couldn't find in any readme (but maybe I've missed it).

So I wonder this : as I can loop mount the hdf file and see it's content (mount -o loop -t affs ...) , what if I zip the content and use it as System.zip ? Will it work or will it give me broken install ?

The best for me would be to find the good System.zip at once, maybe I didn't look well on the ClassicWB website ? Is it possible to download this file somewhere ?

I ask this because I don't want to play try/retry too much, because the pc-amiga file exchange can be time consuming.


PS: Sorry for my bad english

PS2: In 2037 when active amiga fans will be very rare, it would be fun to make an amiga nostalgic party. Maybe we should set a date for a cross countries event ;-)

PS3: I'm not kidding ! Tell me where and when, if still alive I'll be there in 2037 with some friends (if still alive), our old shaking fingers trying not to drop our precious amiga 1200 weighting 5 more Kg because of multiple repairs done every 6 months with fortune hardware, explaining to the US customs that it's just an old computer and not a bombcraft ;-)
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Old 21 November 2007, 22:58   #2
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Unfortunately you have to install and use WinUAE to decrunch the hdf file, zip it and, finally, unzip it on real Amiga. Read here (post #7):

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=30539

I suggest you to try AmigaSYS. This pack have a .lzx file and you can decrunch it directly from a real Amiga.

http://amigasys.extra.hu/eng/index.html
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Old 21 November 2007, 23:44   #3
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Not sure about this but I think xadundisk from the xadmaster package handles HDF files. You could extract the files to a empty partition, have a look at the install script to see what needs to be copied over from the floppies (AmigaOS 3.x) and do just that.

Another possibility would be to mount the HDF file as a drive using xfs (should work). Copy the files... you know the rest

Or simply ask someone to send you a System.zip with the system files already installed. (I would do it myself but my upload speed is too slow).

Bloodwych is working on a new installer. Maybe he'll take all this into consideration (or provide .lha files with the HDF's contents on the website).
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Old 22 November 2007, 14:55   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppill View Post
Not sure about this but I think xadundisk from the xadmaster package handles HDF files. You could extract the files to a empty partition, have a look at the install script to see what needs to be copied over from the floppies (AmigaOS 3.x) and do just that.

Another possibility would be to mount the HDF file as a drive using xfs (should work). Copy the files... you know the rest
Well yes but that would mean I need a complete working system on my amiga in order to install the system I want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppill View Post
Or simply ask someone to send you a System.zip with the system files already installed. (I would do it myself but my upload speed is too slow).
That would be cool but I'll never find someone whishing to send me 200Mo (Note: if you read this in 2037 you are allowed to laught at me)

Quote:
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Bloodwych is working on a new installer. Maybe he'll take all this into consideration (or provide .lha files with the HDF's contents on the website).

That would rock, but I guess he already have lot of maintenance work with 4 packages. Anyway, I guess there should be a way to do an installer that would work for everyone, even for those who don't have windows or those who don't want to setup an emulator in order to install ClassicWB on a real amiga.

My problem is that I can't use the hdf file as a partition with e-uae. Don't know why. I tried option
hardfile2=rw,:<path to hdf>
Without geometry but it doesn't work either

Anyway, copying the content of the hdf to my CF card is no problem, I just mount the hdf :

mount -o loop -t affs System.hdf extraction/

then I copy everything from folder extraction/ to the CF card, but so far I don't know if executable files will be correctly protected ----RWED or not on the amiga.
And if it work, then I don't understand why would I need to use the Real_Amiga_Install.zip ?
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Old 22 November 2007, 16:10   #5
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I've never used Linux and I'm surprised that it's so difficult to access an Amiga HDF on that operating system.

I thought HDF's were universally compatible across UAE formats but it appears I may have been wrong??

If you can extract the contents of the HDF and copy them all over to the Amiga, the installation routine can be run on a real machine - you'll just require a Workbench 3.0/1 disk and pop it in when asked. I'm not sure if a linux utility exists that will do such a thing however.

I used to only provide System.zip files but decided it was better to provide HDF's and let users create the System.zip files themselves. This was back when I was on 56K dialup and moving to HDF solved many issues back then that people were experiencing. It also saved time my end (from creating system.zip files) and upload bandwidth!

The install disk provided only unzips the contents of System.zip and replaces the standard blue trashcan icon with a new icon if you've selected add trashcan when the partition was initially formated.

Now that I have a faster connection and if RCK doesn't mind the extra bulk on his server, I'll take another look at the install procedure and providing system.zip files for all the packs. For now, if you'll let me know which pack you're after, I'll zip it up for you and provide a link via pm.

Remember when choosing a pack that if you have 2MB RAM only, get the LITE version. FULL is for those with plenty of fastram. ADV and above are for those with fastram and multisync monitors or scan doublers, or are brave enough to run interlaced on a TV set.

Last edited by Bloodwych; 22 November 2007 at 16:18.
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Old 22 November 2007, 17:06   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwych View Post
I've never used Linux and I'm surprised that it's so difficult to access an Amiga HDF on that operating system.
Well, if we speak of operating systems, I would say that Linux can handle HDF (ffs) out of the box while Windows can't.
Now, if we speak of emulators, WinUAE has support for HDF while E-Uae seems to be buggy about that (maybe I didn't configured it correctly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwych View Post
I thought HDF's were universally compatible across UAE formats but it appears I may have been wrong??
Or I use it badly?? As I'm in a hurry I read the E-Uae doc without paying much attention. My favourite method when it comes to use virtual hard drive with an amiga emulator is to use a simple folder on the host filesystem. Don't know if WinUae allows that ? I prefer this method to the hdf virtual HD because you can access all the files from the host operating system. This is why I don't have much experience with hdf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwych View Post
If you can extract the contents of the HDF and copy them all over to the Amiga, the installation routine can be run on a real machine - you'll just require a Workbench 3.0/1 disk and pop it in when asked. I'm not sure if a linux utility exists that will do such a thing however.
In fact Linux have built-in support for amiga file fast system meaning that I can mount any amiga HD-drive or file image (hdf) without problem.
I already copied the content of the hdf to my amiga hard drive, the problem is that, as I copied the files from outside an emulator, then the executable files are not protected as required ( ----rwed ) and so the commands will fail to execute because they are not properly set as executable files.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwych View Post
I used to only provide System.zip files but decided it was better to provide HDF's and let users create the System.zip files themselves. This was back when I was on 56K dialup and moving to HDF solved many issues back then that people were experiencing. It also saved time my end (from creating system.zip files) and upload bandwidth!

The install disk provided only unzips the contents of System.zip and replaces the standard blue trashcan icon with a new icon if you've selected add trashcan when the partition was initially formated.

Now that I have a faster connection and if RCK doesn't mind the extra bulk on his server, I'll take another look at the install procedure and providing system.zip files for all the packs. For now, if you'll let me know which pack you're after, I'll zip it up for you and provide a link via pm.
I think I'll find a solution so you don't have to bother making a zip file, etc ..

I'm going to make a script using the "file" program that will set ----rwed on all files of type "AmigaOS loadseg()ble executable/binary" or better, find a tool on aminet which does that.

And I must admit that I was troubled by the Real_Amiga_Install.zip package. I was persuaded that it was a mandatory step for installation on real amiga. Now that I understood that it's not, things are clear in my mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwych View Post
Remember when choosing a pack that if you have 2MB RAM only, get the LITE version. FULL is for those with plenty of fastram. ADV and above are for those with fastram and multisync monitors or scan doublers, or are brave enough to run interlaced on a TV set.

Thanks for the tip.
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Old 22 November 2007, 17:52   #7
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If you can copy the files onto an Amiga hard drive, the flags can be set using the Amiga "Protect" command. So if your boot partition is DH0:

Boot from the Workbench disk and type:

Protect dh0:#? +RWED all

It will then set those flags for all files on DH0:

Oh yeah, and welcome to the forum by the way!
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Old 22 November 2007, 21:17   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwych View Post
Boot from the Workbench disk and type:
Protect dh0:#? +RWED all
It will then set those flags for all files on DH0:
Problem is that I will also set all my data file to executable and when I'll double click on a module or image under filemaster, it will ask to execute it ;-) But don't worry, I'll find a solution.

BTW: do you accept work contribution for ClassicWB ?
I will set up csh on my new system (once working correctly), if you are interested into adding csh to ClassicWB, I can send you a "patch". If you're wondering why including csh I can do some promo and explain a case where it could be usefull to everyone who have a huge collection of WHDload games.

Quote:
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Oh yeah, and welcome to the forum by the way!
Thanks !
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Old 22 November 2007, 23:35   #9
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I've never used Filemaster so I wasn't aware setting +RWED would create that issue.

The ClassicWB packs by default use Dopus and (FULL and above) Scalos, both which use the file extensions and/or contents to decide what action occurs when double-clicking. I don't think setting all the flags to +RWED would cause an issue for most users.

csh? Is that C-Shell? Never used it. I'm always willing to give anything a try if it improves the packs and doesn't affect performance, classic feel or compatibility. What you'll probably find is you'll want to customize ClassicWB anyway before you're happy with it as I try and keep the base install fairly neutral.

I won't have chance to work on the packs until probably just before xmas, but please post any suggestions or comments whenever you feel appropriate.

Also as fc.studio pointed out, AmigaSYS has recently added a real Amiga install pack too - you may want to try it.
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Old 23 November 2007, 13:33   #10
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If you're wondering why including csh I can do some promo and explain a case where it could be usefull to everyone who have a huge collection of WHDload games
Sounds interesting. I'm all ears
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Old 23 November 2007, 15:21   #11
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Sounds interesting. I'm all ears
Héhé! Well, the fact that csh provides <tab> command completion can give better usability than a GUI in some contextes.

A good example is when you want to play whdload games.
(Note: I don't know if there exists a front-end for whdload games, if yes, then what I'm saying below is voided)

When you are under workbench and you want to play to superfrog, you open the Games folder, then you open the S folder, then you try to find superfrog in the hundreds of games present in the folder which often take some times, once found you open the superfrog folder and then click on the icon of the game. After done playing superfrog, you want to play Hybris, so you close the windows until you're in the Games window, then you open letter H and find Hybris, ...

A better alternative would be to configure dopus in order to bind *.slaves to whdload or an arrex script launched when selecting the folder of a game. I did this in filemaster. (maybe BloodWych has done this in CWB, I didn't checked)

Personnaly I use a csh shell for this kind of things.
In the shell you could type the following :

:g<tab>

csh will autocomplete to :Games/

then you type

S<tab>

csh will autocomplete to :Games/S/

then you type

superf<tab>

csh will autocomplete to :Games/S/Superfrog/

then you hit enter and you are in the good folder

all you have to do now is to press <F10>

and the game starts

(I made a binding to the F10 key in the .cshrc config file, the binding starts WHDload with the slave as parameter, I used F10 because it's the same key I configured for quitting the games in WHDload)

Of course it seems a lot of explication for a simple task, but if you try to imagine the thing, you'll see that any game can be started in 4 seconds by typing some text instead of clicking in many folders which takes more time and more RAM (and the RAM is precious in order to run whd games)


Of course, as I'm not a workbench user, maybe there's a way I'm not aware of in order to get the same facility.

I'm not saying that it's the best method, it's just the method I like to use (until I find a front-end). But anyway, I think it would be cool if csh was added to CWB (it's just 520K)
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Old 23 November 2007, 15:48   #12
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Sounds cool - some people prefer using command lines to do tasks.

The next release actually has a new way of launching WHDLoad games and demos with less steps also. It has a quick launch bar that brings up a list box with your fav WHDLoad titles listed:

http://eab.abime.net/attachment.php?...4&d=1194785724

You add the paths of your games to a simple text file, then they appear in the list box in alphabetical order for double click launching! No drawers or icons in sight.

Adding a faster way to access them via CSH might also be a great addition.
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Old 23 November 2007, 15:54   #13
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Filename completion is a real time saver but it isn't exactly exclusive to csh. ZShell (which is absolutely tiny), KingCON, VincED and possibly other CON/CLI replacements (WShell?) have this feature.

ZShell is especially useful when you're short on memory (and you can also use key bindings for aliases).

I like the idea with the F10. Added to my aliases list

I think killergorilla is working on a frontend. There's one using MUI by MrZammler (iGame). There's probably more...
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Old 23 November 2007, 16:08   #14
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ClassicWB does already have Kingcon, but I'm not sure how it compares to CSH and Z-Shell in terms of functionality.

I've yet to try the dedicated WHDLoad launchers fearing they'd be a little slow and heavy on resources (eg using MUI).

At the moment the launch process uses Lazybench, which runs as a tiny background commodity and loads fast. Once run, it remains resident and can be brought up using a single key press for launching WHDload games.

This may change after I've had chance to sample all the dedicated Workbench WHDLoad options.
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Old 23 November 2007, 16:38   #15
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I use iGame. It is a brilliant frontend that remembers favourites, allows searching, screenshots and genres.
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Old 23 November 2007, 16:56   #16
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iGame is nice, but the features come at a price - you need a fast computer and plenty of ram once the games start building up. Even in the docs, it suggests 16MB RAM minimum and an 030 being too slow!

Therefore it's too resource hungry for the base ClassicWB packs, but admit it's a great launcher if you've got the power.
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Old 23 November 2007, 17:17   #17
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Quote:
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Filename completion is a real time saver but it isn't exactly exclusive to csh. ZShell (which is absolutely tiny), KingCON, VincED and possibly other CON/CLI replacements (WShell?) have this feature.
Yeah I know, I tried them all. KingCON is too resource hungry and too slow for my taste. Besides, I never found a way to deactivate the gui launched for ambiguous autocompletion (but I must admit I didn't searched a lot). Zshell is cool, but I don't really remember why I prefered csh over it (I think it has something to do with config). I'll try it again because if remember well it was lighter than csh.

Anyway, if CWB already has an advanced shell, it would be redundant to add another one.

PS: iGame seems cool but if it's too resource hungry then it will be a problem for running whd games on my 2mo amiga.
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Old 23 November 2007, 17:38   #18
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Well, I'm willing to replace KingCON with csh or z-shell if they're better, as long as they don't cause any issues with the software already in place. Perhaps a poll is required and see what die hard shell users think!
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Old 23 November 2007, 17:56   #19
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Besides, I never found a way to deactivate the gui launched for ambiguous autocompletion (but I must admit I didn't searched a lot).
From the manual:

FNCMODE <flags> Sets the flags that determine how you select the file you want after you have activated any of the completion-functions. The flags are described in section 4 and "Other selection-methods". The following sequence makes KingCON behave more "tcsh-like":

KCON:.../FNCMODE BC/...


Quote:
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Zshell is cool, but I don't really remember why I prefered csh over it (I think it has something to do with config). I'll try it again because if remember well it was lighter than csh.
It's a nice little shell but still has its issues.

I guess I need to try CSH then. Which version you're using and where can I get it (there seems to be a lot of different ports floating around)?
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Old 23 November 2007, 17:57   #20
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Well, I'm willing to replace KingCON with csh or z-shell if they're better, as long as they don't cause any issues with the software already in place. Perhaps a poll is required and see what die hard shell users think!
Yeah why not !
Funny thing is that there is only a hundred of persons concerned by this poll.

About 40 persons downloaded zsh and 70 downloaded csh on aminet
http://aminet.net/search?query=zshell
http://aminet.net/search?query=csh

I guess that only 25% of them are watching threads on EAB, and 50% of the 25% don't care about workbench. So 12.5 persons might be interested by the poll. My question is, who is the 0.5 ?

I'm going to have a deeper look to zsh this w-e in order to compare with csh, I'll give you a pros/cons feedback.
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