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Old 15 January 2019, 18:30   #601
wawa
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Originally Posted by Romanujan View Post
True. I have tried AROS some time ago. Holy crap, it was unusable... it couldn't even render text on the console with acceptable performance :/ I definitely prefer AmigaOS, especially if it is still being developed.
yes, it is slow, but i can actually run it on an a1200/4mb fast and console/shell should be responsive enough. i wouldnt though attempt to load the whole wanderer on such a setup, so better boot with no s-s or workbook (unfinished).

wonder what config you tested on and when.
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Old 15 January 2019, 18:41   #602
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
You did select "JIT" there in the WinUEA prefs - so this is no measurement for real Amiga hardware.
AROS 68k looks forward and will be ready for the future hardware, also OS 3.1.4 on real Amiga hardware basic it's not usable if you use the color and resolution high.
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(And why did you choose 68060? On WinUEA this is slower than 020+FPU and JIT)
Yes I know there is no difference on WinUAE between 020+FPU and 060+FPU, but I on AROS 68k and AfA-OS use applications, libraries, and others that require a 040/060

Last edited by AMIGASYSTEM; 15 January 2019 at 19:09.
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Old 15 January 2019, 18:42   #603
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
This is a buisiness decision I cannot make. But there is no need to for a new ROM, so I doubt that there will be a new ROM - not for such an error.
I didn't mean the release of a new physical chip so much as an update to the downloadable version. I mean will the update only be available as part of Setpatch or incorporated into an update to the downloadable Kickstart images. Even just the updated files that we can incorporate into the image ourselves or put on things like Deneb or Kickflash.

I understand that you, or anyone else other than Hyperion, don't make that final decision. I'm asking what you THINK may happen based on your understanding of the situation. Of course the answer could quite simply be "I don't know"
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Old 15 January 2019, 18:46   #604
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@wawa, If I remember correctly, I have tried it on MiST - quite some time ago. As far as I heard, not much has improved since then, so I'm not wasting time on it any more; I've got quite large directory of packages from Aminet still to try out.
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Old 15 January 2019, 19:02   #605
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Meanwhile, in Microsoft land...
https://github.com/PowerShell/PowerShell
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Old 15 January 2019, 19:03   #606
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
Oh, right, because the bugs we have fixed count nothing. This is exactly the problem I have here. Several people making a big rumble about the bugs they found, and nobody is making a big rumble about the bugs in 3.1 anymore. Sometimes so severe that switching a graphics mode from productivity to an OCS mode on 3.1 can corrupt memory and you cannot boot from drives larger than 4GB, the size of a sub-average USB stick today.
I want to be very clear that I am quite happy with this update. The multitude of bug fixes and new features are greatly appreciated!

It seems like some people don't understand that a great deal of work has been done with relatively miniscule resources. When Commodore was maintaining the software, they had a team of people working on it. FULL TIME people whose sole job was to do this. They had full time developers and testers.

This update has been done with a handful of people working on this in their spare time. They spent most of their time in the real world doing the things needed to pay bills and putting food on the table.

Every release that Commodore did introduced several new bugs. They had the advantage of having to develop for a very small number of models. This update serves all of those plus machines with much more variables like two different RTG systems. They did this from source code with screwey logic and in some cases no documentation. Trying to do this with code in obsolete or obscure forms, code with no internal comments, code that the original developers had intimate experience with, is not at all the easiest thing in the world. That is a major understatement! Personally I would never want to attempt it!
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Old 15 January 2019, 19:08   #607
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Meanwhile, in Microsoft land...
https://github.com/PowerShell/PowerShell
What is the point of comparing anything in the Amiga world, either today or in the Commodore years, to Microsoft with, literally, hundreds of developers? Get real why don't you.

If you are so unhappy with this, go away and play with Windows, Linux or whatever. Please stop whining about the same thing over and over in dozens of posts on several forums. You have been given the answers. Repeatedly.
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Old 15 January 2019, 19:18   #608
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The point was to show the failure of open sourcing things.
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Old 15 January 2019, 19:21   #609
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@pgovotsos

There is just one world we all live in.
It is not about Amiga or Windows, but about the benefits of open source.

PowerShell on Github shows: even Microsoft get's it more and more.
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Old 15 January 2019, 19:39   #610
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Yeah, meanwhile, in Amiga land, there is various incarnations of Amiga Shell, AROS Shell, MorphOS Shell, and this thing I think best is described as ThoR Shell. All different in all their ways, no common standard. Well, with MorphOS, OS4 and AROS one can expect users to keep their systems updated, on AmigaOS 68k it is a mess.
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Old 15 January 2019, 19:42   #611
Minuous
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
If reaction is all you miss, you can certainly install those from 3.9.
And if you get hold of their sources - in a legally proper way that is - I am certainly more than happy to update them as well.
Hyperion already has the rights and sources for ReAction, I would imagine, since it is part of OS4. I for one would be more than happy to buy or even help with the development of an OS3.91 or whatever it would be called.

Last edited by Minuous; 15 January 2019 at 19:56.
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Old 15 January 2019, 19:50   #612
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
Indeed, it wouldn't. There wouldn't be more people that actually do something, and there would be an equal or larger amount of complainers because - whatever anyone would do -somebody else would complain about it. As it happens here. Everything you do is wrong for someone.
To summarise your point: you prefer AmigaOS to be closed-source because then you are in control of what happens. You can improve it. As it happens, you create new bugs. But then -- pretty ironically -- you complain about people complaining about the bugs. You point out, rather self-pitying, that people only complain about your new bugs and never contribute anything themselves. Which is the very thing you appreciate to start with: people wouldn't and shouldn't be allowed to contribute anyway. Sounds rather self-righteous.

If you think you and your teammates alone can improve AmigaOS in a good way, stop complaining about the lack of contribution from others. That you do this for free doesn't mean that others who pay for the result of your work don't have the right to complain.
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Old 15 January 2019, 20:15   #613
Thomas Richter
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Originally Posted by grond View Post
To summarise your point: you prefer AmigaOS to be closed-source because then you are in control of what happens. You can improve it. As it happens, you create new bugs. But then -- pretty ironically -- you complain about people complaining about the bugs.
Hold on. This is not about *my* control. Want to contribute? No problem, come on board. It's not that single people make decisions on the Os at large here. Have you actually been part of the process so you know how things operate?

It's not that single people make decisions on the Os at large here. Don't want to come on board? No problem either, write something nice, put it up on Aminet. If you believe you can create software without bugs, it also works with me. Demonstrate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by grond View Post
You point out, rather self-pitying, that people only complain about your new bugs and never contribute anything themselves. Which is the very thing you appreciate to start with: people wouldn't and shouldn't be allowed to contribute anyway.
Unlike what you believe, I haven't written 3.1.4 single-handed. Strange, isn't it? Unlike what you believe, I don't have issues with "bug reports". I have issues for "rants", for complaints for the point of complaining. You see such people a lot. People that do nothing, contribute nothing - in no particular way. By that I not only mean "to the Os".
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Originally Posted by grond View Post
That you do this for free doesn't mean that others who pay for the result of your work don't have the right to complain.
The problem is not "right to complain". The problem is "complaining for the point of complaining". I haven't heard a single word from "specific persons" saying, "oh how nice that we can now boot from large disk drives, but I found this particular problem...".

That's a fair contribution, and I'm happy to receive bug reports to fix them.

What I am not happy about are people that scan for every little bug, and then make a rumble about every little bug just to drive people away.

Criticism can be both positive or negative. If positive, it is an excellent contribution. If negative, it helps no-one.
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Old 15 January 2019, 20:18   #614
Thomas Richter
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Yeah, meanwhile, in Amiga land, there is various incarnations of Amiga Shell, AROS Shell, MorphOS Shell, and this thing I think best is described as ThoR Shell. All different in all their ways, no common standard. Well, with MorphOS, OS4 and AROS one can expect users to keep their systems updated, on AmigaOS 68k it is a mess.
And just another pointless rumble. What is the "mess part" of "wait for the update to be ready"? Could you please explain that, Kolla?

To others: See, this is exactly what I mean by "complaining for the means of complaining".
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Old 15 January 2019, 20:22   #615
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Originally Posted by Minuous View Post
Hyperion already has the rights and sources for ReAction, I would imagine, since it is part of OS4. I for one would be more than happy to buy or even help with the development of an OS3.91 or whatever it would be called.
I do not have the 3.9 components in the subversion, really. Which includes Os 4 - the repository. The reaction components - and by that I mean the preferences editors, and IconEdit, and probably some others - were contributed by H&P. We don't have them. Fact.

The 3.9 HDToolBox and the hdwrench.library was written by Joanne. She sold the component to a third party. So we don't have it.

So please, could you please leave it to the people that actually *do* have access to the subversion to check what is present and what is not?

Thank you.
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Old 15 January 2019, 20:29   #616
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@ Thomas

While you are complaining about the attitude of some people ... I may not be the first one to remark you are showing one yourself…

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Hold on. This is not about *my* control. Want to contribute? No problem, come on board.
As soon as it is OSS, gladly.

Working for free for a commercial product to the benefits of a rather shady company, fueling further law suites, risking all my work being buried - no thanks.
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Old 15 January 2019, 20:33   #617
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@Thomas:

The classes are the important part, preferences editors etc. can be re-ReActionized later.

Of course I don't know what is on the subversion; I was just making a guess so you could correct me.

Last edited by Minuous; 15 January 2019 at 20:41.
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Old 15 January 2019, 20:38   #618
Thomas Richter
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As soon as it is OSS, gladly.

Working for free for a commercial product to the benefits of a rather shady company, fueling further law suites, risking all my work being buried - no thanks.
But you are aware that I'm not making the rules, correct?

You are of course right if you observe that all the legal b*llsh*t is not helping in any particular way. No matter whom to trust. We will see what the judgement will be - and whatever it will be, it will unfortunately not be the final one.

But then, unlike you, I do not believe that OSS helps in this particular case. If you want to help an OSS project, you are of course welcome to do so.
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Old 15 January 2019, 20:39   #619
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The reaction components - and by that I mean the preferences editors, and IconEdit, and probably some others - were contributed by H&P. We don't have them. Fact.
The 3.9 HDToolBox and the hdwrench.library was written by Joanne. She sold the component to a third party. So we don't have it.
Guess what would have prevented this kind of situation .... guess what would prevent it from happening again ... why not learning from the past?
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Old 15 January 2019, 20:41   #620
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The "mess" I talk about is all the incarnations of Amiga shell you can expext to find on 68k Amiga systems. Someone running "OS 3.9" can be running anything from v40 to v46, depending on what kickstart and ROM updates the person has bothered/been capable of installing. Writing scripts that cover all, means dropping all "modern" features and working around various bugs that may exist
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