Games that are Full Frame Rate or Slower - Limitations or Choice?

[Foebane]

I think what bothers me most about Amiga gaming is how the games are split between those that use the full frame rate of the Amiga for super-smooth scrolling, etc. at 50 or 60Hz vs those that use a lower frame rate, and I wonder if those latter games couldn't have been faster or if it was just an aesthetic choice?

Full Frame Rate game examples are:

- Shadow of the Beast Series
- Turrican Series
- Jim Power
- Lionheart
- Alianator
- Robocod (borderline, slows down)

and the slower games are:

- Anything by Bitmap Brothers (from what I've seen)
- Many various platform games
- Atari ST ports
- Most 3D games

I know that for the FFR games, the custom chips are used to ensure maximum framerate, and platform games as I've mentioned above are usually silky-smooth and really arcade-like, but I've come across exceptions, such as most stuff by the Bitmap Brothers (whom I thought used the custom chips in their games, or it would be smoother) and the 3D Defender clone Alianator even manages to be FFR and 3D, which is exceptional!

I would say that ST ports tend to be slower as they bypass the custom chips, so that's an obvious given, but at the other extreme, why doesn't Team 17's Project-X use FFR, like Apidya?

The crux of my question is: could these less-than FFR games be faster, or is it simply the choice of the programmer to slow it down by half?

[vulture]

I think as far as scrolling goes, unless something peculiar goes on, hw scrolling should always be 1 vbl. Apidya, for example, is only scrolling every other frame to pace the overall speed. Project-X, I assume, only scrolls at 25fps for the same reason and could go @50, but the enemies are blitted @25 to be able to fit more objects on screen without slow downs. I'm not an expert by any means so, plz, anyone with technical knowledge correct me if I'm wrong. Also, here's a thread about games @50 : http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=80207

Shadow Of The Beast isn't 50 fps.
When you change direction the frame rate drops to 25 fps.

[Amigajay]

Tbh not like now where fps is everything, back then it really wasn't, most of us went from 8bit micros and consoles, as long as the game was pretty and playable then all was good, 17-25fps was perfectly acceptable on most games, i think it annoys me more now that these games get picked on for not being full frame, leave it be, it was a different era!

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Caligula

Shadow Of The Beast isn't 50 fps.
When you change direction the frame rate drops to 25 fps.

Beast most definitely is 50frames per second, all three of them are.

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

Beast most definitely is 50frames per second, all three of them are.

Nope.

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=87745

[vulture]

You're just talking about the instances where your character turns direction for a few miliseconds, that doesn't mean the game isn't running at full frame.

Originally Posted by vulture

You're just talking about the instances where your character turns direction for a few miliseconds, that doesn't mean the game isn't running at full frame.

Oh well ... Then a 50 fps game can be a game that isn't always running at 50 fps. Good to know. I love new concepts, it's all about intellectual creativity, after all.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Caligula

Oh well ... Then a 50 fps game can be a game that isn't always running at 50 fps. Good to know.

Not all of them do, there's bound to be some slowdown with busier moments, like I said with Robocod. But they're DESIGNED to run at 50fps full speed.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by Caligula

Oh well ... Then a 50 fps game can be a game that isn't always running at 50 fps. Good to know. I love new concepts, it's all about intellectual creativity, after all.

So, any game that slows down anywhere at all ever is not 50/60Hz?

That would exclude the Turrican series, pretty any shoot em up on any platform, any game where the title/hi-score/loading isn't updating at 50/60Hz, etc.

I'm not so sure I'd agree.

If 99,9% of the game runs at 50/60Hz, I'd say that's good enough to call it 50/60Hz. Cherry picking one instance where it doesn't and then saying the entire game isn't 50/60Hz seems overly strict to me.

By that same logic I could also say a game that runs at 25/30Hz but has one small part where it runs at 50/60Hz is not a 25/30Hz game. Which, to me, seems a silly argument.


---
Anyway, my answer to the OP would be:

I think it depends, there are definitely games where hardware limitations forced a lower refresh rate (most if not all 3D games, most strategy games, some very busy 2D games). But there are also a whole bunch of games where the hardware just wasn't used very well - not using hardware scrolling, not using the blitter, or not using the sprite hardware, etc.

So why then are some games like Project-X not FFR?

Looking at Project-X as an example, it seems to me that they just blit more than the Amiga can handle in a frame in some areas and decided to keep the whole game 25Hz to not make these moments obvious. Of course, I'm not the designer so I could be wrong here.

Originally Posted by roondar

So, any game that slows down anywhere at all ever is not 50/60Hz?

That would exclude the Turrican series, pretty any shoot em up on any platform, any game where the title/hi-score/loading isn't updating at 50/60Hz, etc.

I'm not so sure I'd agree.

If 99,9% of the game runs at 50/60Hz, I'd say that's good enough to call it 50/60Hz. Cherry picking one instance where it doesn't and then saying the entire game isn't 50/60Hz seems overly strict to me.

By that same logic I could also say a game that runs at 25/30Hz but has one small part where it runs at 50/60Hz is not a 25/30Hz game. Which, to me, seems a silly argument.


---
Anyway, my answer to the OP would be:

I think it depends, there are definitely games where hardware limitations forced a lower refresh rate (most if not all 3D games, most strategy games, some very busy 2D games). But there are also a whole bunch of games where the hardware just wasn't used very well - not using hardware scrolling, not using the blitter, or not using the sprite hardware, etc.

So why then are some games like Project-X not FFR?

Looking at Project-X as an example, it seems to me that they just blit more than the Amiga can handle in a frame in some areas and decided to keep the whole game 25Hz to not make these moments obvious. Of course, I'm not the designer so I could be wrong here.

Technical truth is strict.
Either it is 50 fps, either it isn't.
SOTB is not.
Period.

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by Foebane

(...)
and the slower games are:
(...)
- Most 3D games

(...)I've come across exceptions(...)3D Defender clone Alianator even manages to be FFR and 3D, which is exceptional!

Excuse me, but are You writing about plain A500, plain A1200 or expanded machine? It's true for 000/020, but on my old 040@40 many 3D (e.g. vector) games were even faster (!) than 50/60 FPS. Not to mention about some 2D arcade games problem when they are working much too fast (unplayable) on better (040/060) processors.

So, in short: Fast working 3d games are exception maybe for 000/020. For 040/060 it's normal thing.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by Caligula

Technical truth is strict.
Either it is 50 fps, either it isn't.
SOTB is not.
Period.

Well, you're welcome to your opinion. But do realise that means that most (nearly all I'd wager) games on any platform fall outside of your definition of Full Frame Rate.

I still disagree.

SOTB is 50Hz.
'Period'.

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

Excuse me, but are You writing about plain A500, plain A1200 or expanded machine? It's true for 000/020, but on my old 040@40 many 3D (e.g. vector) games were even faster (!) than 50/60 FPS. Not to mention about some 2D arcade games problem when they are working much too fast (unplayable) on better (040/060) processors.

So, in short: Fast working 3d games are exception maybe for 000/020. For 040/060 it's normal thing.

Wow. Fantastic: now some 3D games displaying more frames than what your monitor refresh rate can cope with.
Awesome !
Aaaaaaammmmiiiiiggggaaaaa !!!!

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by Caligula

Wow. Fantastic: now some 3D games displaying more frames than what your monitor refresh rate can cope with.
Awesome !
Aaaaaaammmmiiiiiggggaaaaa !!!!

And my monitor was multisync. And what now? :P

Edit: Sorry guy, but it looks like your knowledge is based only on plain A500 with old PAL/NTSC. No better processor, no better monitor, nothing better...

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Caligula

Nope.

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=87745

Youre still wrong.

If you cannot see the difference between the Beast series and ANYTHING by the Bitmap Brothers, discerning the difference between night and day is likely beyond your skillset.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

Excuse me, but are You writing about plain A500, plain A1200 or expanded machine? It's true for 000/020, but on my old 040@40 many 3D (e.g. vector) games were even faster (!) than 50/60 FPS. Not to mention about some 2D arcade games problem when they are working much too fast (unplayable) on better (040/060) processors.

So, in short: Fast working 3d games are exception maybe for 000/020. For 040/060 it's normal thing.

Yes, I'm referring to plain hardware: A500 with 0.5Mb trapdoor expansion, unexpanded A1200.

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

Youre still wrong.

If you cannot see the difference between the Beast series and ANYTHING by the Bitmap Brothers, discerning the difference between night and day is likely beyond your skillset.

I know what 50 fps is and no doubt your answer was and stil is a joke.
Face the truth.
SOTB is not a 50 fps game, its refresh rate drops to 25 when the main character changes direction.

[Retro-Nerd]

Of course SotB is a 50fps game. Who cares, if it runs 0,01% of the time in 25fps. Silly hairsplitting.

[Rotareneg]

You're right, it's 60 fps. I don't know what's wrong with all you people's Amiga's which run 10 fps slower than they're supposed to.