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Old 11 May 2009, 01:24   #581
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Originally Posted by prowler View Post
The A-Max IV manual states that version 4 is not backwardly compatible with image formats from previous versions of the emulator, and those ADF images were prepared by Supamax using A-Max II.

You'll have to use A-Max II as well to make use of those images. You can get it from the EAB File Server in the Emulators/Amiga Macintosh folder.
Mmmm... this is not completely true:

- NO, I didn't use A-Max II to prepare the eADF images. I used Emplant Disk Converter v7.0, which has the option to save in A-Max format (and it doesn't specify which version. It only displays "A-Max")

- YES, it could be that A-Max IV is not backward compatible (a little absurd, but could be) with the previous A-Max format, but this look strange to me. If so, we have to find out how is supposed to be the new format...
HINT: perhaps A-Max IV has some sort of converter from the old to the new format
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Old 11 May 2009, 01:27   #582
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Originally Posted by cosmicfrog View Post
@supermax what settings you use and version of amax in winuae plz I`m using amax2.56
I'm Supamax! (not supermax)

I'm using A-Max II and/or A-Max II v2.56, and the latest official release of WinUAE (1.5.3).
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Old 11 May 2009, 01:43   #583
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Originally Posted by Supamax View Post
- NO, I didn't use A-Max II to prepare the eADF images. I used Emplant Disk Converter v7.0, which has the option to save in A-Max format (and it doesn't specify which version. It only displays "A-Max")
Sorry, what I meant to say was that you had prepared them for use with A-Max II.

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- YES, it could be that A-Max IV is not backward compatible (a little absurd, but could be) with the previous A-Max format, but this look strange to me. If so, we have to find out how is supposed to be the new format...
HINT: perhaps A-Max IV has some sort of converter from the old to the new format
You're absolutely right about the absurdity of some of the statements in the A-Max IV manual. I'm beginning to think (and hope!) that the manual hosted on the official A-Max website is some sort of pre-release version and that the released emulator is somewehat different in nature.
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Old 11 May 2009, 01:47   #584
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Don't worry. I'll keep looking. They're only the ones I have installed because I use them regularly. I have others archived...
I forgot to thank you for your efforts, mate!

I was thinking: it's strange that I can use those 400KB images converted to 800KB by adding zero bytes. But it works indeed (you checked that too, in Mini vMac)...
I thought (initially) that 400KB floppies were 40-tracks and the 800KB were 80-tracks, but I was wrong. I read that 400KB=single-sided 80 tracks, and 800KB=double-sided 80 tracks.

So, when I add around 400KB zero-bytes to a 400KB image, the result is an 800KB image where all the tracks from the same side are grouped together in the first 40 tracks of the image (instead of being scattered all over the 800KB image).
Such an image should not work (in theory), but it works both in A-Max and in vMac! I would be curious to know if it works on a real Mac .
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Old 11 May 2009, 01:52   #585
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Originally Posted by prowler View Post
Sorry, what I meant to say was that you had prepared them for use with A-Max II.
To be very very precise and annoying () I prepared them for use with A-Max, any version (I thought there was only one format).

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I'm beginning to think (and hope!) that the manual hosted on the official A-Max website is some sort of pre-release version and that the released emulator is somewehat different in nature.
The same for me .
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Old 11 May 2009, 01:57   #586
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@ prowler

Can this scheme be of any use/help for you (in relation to our 400KB reading/converting issue, I mean)?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3444/...36633616_o.png
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Old 11 May 2009, 02:06   #587
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Originally Posted by Supamax View Post
I was thinking: it's strange that I can use those 400KB images converted to 800KB by adding zero bytes. But it works indeed (you checked that too, in Mini vMac)...
I thought (initially) that 400KB floppies were 40-tracks and the 800KB were 80-tracks, but I was wrong. I read that 400KB=single-sided 80 tracks, and 800KB=double-sided 80 tracks.

So, when I add around 400KB zero-bytes to a 400KB image, the result is an 800KB image where all the tracks from the same side are grouped together in the first 40 tracks of the image (instead of being scattered all over the 800KB image).
Such an image should not work (in theory), but it works both in A-Max and in vMac! I would be curious to know if it works on a real Mac .
I really don't think that the emulators are reading the image in quite the way you suggest. Mini vMac fully supports the 400K image format and will ignore what it sees as 400K of superfluous data appended to the image file. It knows that the image is 400K in capacity by looking at the formatting information in the boot sector of the image.

I can't be sure about the A-Max emulator, of course, but I'd be surprised if it's not looking at the image in much the same way at the OS level.

Because of my belief that Mac OS only sees a 400K disk under these circumstances, I really don't think it would be possible to get a real Macintosh to see the image any differently either. Hence, a physical floppy disk formatted in the arrangement you describe will just not be possible to create with a disk copying utility.
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Old 11 May 2009, 02:20   #588
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Originally Posted by prowler View Post
I really don't think that the emulators are reading the image in quite the way you suggest. Mini vMac fully supports the 400K image format and will ignore what it sees as 400K of superfluous data appended to the image file. It knows that the image is 400K in capacity by looking at the formatting information in the boot sector of the image.

I can't be sure about the A-Max emulator, of course, but I'd be surprised if it's not looking at the image in much the same way at the OS level.

Because of my belief that Mac OS only sees a 400K disk under these circumstances, I really don't think it would be possible to get a real Mascintosh to see the image any differently either. Hence, a physical floppy disk formatted in the arrangement you describe will just not be possible to create with a disk copying utility.
I understand what you mean: "the emulator sees the image as a 400KB one, so it doesn't care about all the added bytes".

This is probably what happens, BUT I don't have a clue about how it happens. I mean: it shouldn't work!
I will explain it better:
What you wrote would be absolutely true if the 400KB floppies were double-sided 40-tracks. Instead, they are single-sided 80-tracks. The logical structure is very different in the two cases (or, at least, it should be).
So, the 400KB image contains data which can be scattered all over the 80-tracks.

Unless... perhaps the emulator loads my "expanded" 400KB image (800KB size), sees it as 400KB and treats it as 80 tracks as it should be?

No, wait, it can't be! I watched WinUAE's floppy track indicator when A-Max booted my modified 400KB--->800KB image, and it never went beyond track 40!

And this is logical, because the image contains only zeroes in the area beyond track 40 (the second 400KB of the 800KB file).

Some idea/explanation?

P.S. I don't know if I made myself clear...
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Old 11 May 2009, 02:32   #589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supamax View Post
@ prowler

Can this scheme be of any use/help for you (in relation to our 400KB reading/converting issue, I mean)?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3444/...36633616_o.png
Nice find, mate!

It confirms why my PowerMacs will not read or write 400K disks properly, though I have always been able to copy and image them correctly.

A PPC based Macintosh cannot run Mac OS earlier than System 7.0, which, according to this Floppy Disk Compatibility Matrix has only limited read and write capability withn 400K disks, and System 7.6 has only read capability. However, Classic Mac OS 8.0 and up (which is what I have running in my PCI Macs) has only disk copying capability.

One interesting point: According to this chart, Systems 1.0 and 2.0 have only 400K compatibility, and yet I was able to produce valid 800K System 1.0 and 2.0 boot disk images using the technique I described.

I think this chart may be an over-simplification of the true picture. It fails to take account of the hardware running the Macintosh System/OS.

It won't help us find the utility we seek to perform 400K --> 800K disk image conversion.
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Old 11 May 2009, 03:07   #590
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Originally Posted by Supamax View Post
I understand what you mean: "the emulator sees the image as a 400KB one, so it doesn't care about all the added bytes".

This is probably what happens, BUT I don't have a clue about how it happens. I mean: it shouldn't work!
I will explain it better:
What you wrote would be absolutely true if the 400KB floppies were double-sided 40-tracks. Instead, they are single-sided 80-tracks. The logical structure is very different in the two cases (or, at least, it should be).
So, the 400KB image contains data which can be scattered all over the 80-tracks.

Unless... perhaps the emulator loads my "expanded" 400KB image (800KB size), sees it as 400KB and treats it as 80 tracks as it should be?

No, wait, it can't be! I watched WinUAE's floppy track indicator when A-Max booted my modified 400KB--->800KB image, and it never went beyond track 40!

And this is logical, because the image contains only zeroes in the area beyond track 40 (the second 400KB of the 800KB file).

Some idea/explanation?

P.S. I don't know if I made myself clear...
Floppy disk images (and most hard disk images) for Macintosh emulators take no account of physical disk structure. Only two parameters are necessary to adequately define the structure of a floppy disk for emulation purposes: number and size of sectors, e.g. 1600 x 512 byte sectors for an 800K disk.

WinUAE is not a Macintosh emulator, of course, and looks to have a different method of handling floppy disk images and certainly this is the case for hard disk images.

I really don't think the argument you present for how the "expanded" disk image must be arranged is applicable here, hence WinUAE's floppy track indicator never going beyond track 40. The assignation of tracks to an image of this type is arbitrary but a necessary feature of WinUAE's floppy disk image handling routines.

I may have made some incorrect assumptions here, but it's the only way I can express my certainty that your confusion is the result of your forgetting that emulation does not need to be perfect in every respect to get the job done.
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Old 11 May 2009, 03:46   #591
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@ prowler

I'll try to explain at my best what's bugging me.
As you will know, each floppy disk image is composed of a sequence of data in a *precise* order so that, for example, a sector present on the real disk at track 48 side 1 will be "seen" by the emulator as present on the same track and same side in the virtual disk (the disk image).
This can't be otherwise, because a routine searching for data at a specific location *has* to find the data there and only there. If not, crashes etc.
This is valid for a lot of (if not all) emulators, including the ones for Atari ST, ZX Spectrum + DISCiple/PlusD, C64 etc. and of course Amiga.

When WinUAE is showing track xx, the virtual disk heads are really (OK, logically, not physically) on that track.

You must be right about vMac. It's different from other emulators, since it seems to treat floppy disk images and hard disk images the same way.
So, no matter how big the image is (do you mean you could load a 400KB---->4.000KB oversized image and it would boot it correctly?) it sees it the right way, and all works.

But when I convert a 400KB---->800KB image to eADF, A-Max format, it effectively becomes an 80-tracks double-sided disk with the second group of 40 tracks absolutely empty.

EDIT

OK, I think I finally understood what you mean: Mac disks (even System disks) don't rely on specific tracks for its program files.
So a system disk will boot, independently from file's position in the disk image.
This explains why the "upgraded" images work in A-Max and Mini vMac.

But... what about some protected programs? If a game has some data at a specific track and expects to find it there, it will never run in Mini vMac. Am I right?
Instead, I suppose it will run in A-Max (if the dump format used takes care of tracks sequence/position etc.).

Last edited by Supamax; 11 May 2009 at 04:38.
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Old 11 May 2009, 09:33   #592
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appoligies Supamax for calling you supermax, see whay happens when I don`t use cut & past..

hope do some more testing to day
but when I say amax4 kills winuae thats exactly what i mean, out of the 3 times I`ve tried it once i had a window telling me it crashd but generaly winuae just exists.
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Old 11 May 2009, 13:08   #593
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ok got a new problem now
my system disk (6) has stoped workin on my real amiga, so I can`t boot amax
any ideas how to make a new one or I`m I going to have to ask someone to send me a new one

edit:
what files do i need on a mac disk to make it bootable
seem to have got shapeshifter up and running on the amiga now as well, but formatting floppy's is becoming a pain
arrrrggghhhh initalization failed , hope this is a duff floppy problem but I`m begging to suspect it is`nt

finaly got a disk formated in shape shifter now to play

tar in advance

Last edited by cosmicfrog; 11 May 2009 at 13:51.
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Old 11 May 2009, 17:05   #594
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when I say amax4 kills winuae thats exactly what i mean, out of the 3 times I`ve tried it once i had a window telling me it crashd but generaly winuae just exists.
Oh, I see... so it's not A-Max which crashes. It's WinUAE!
This is more severe than I thought... we'll investigate.

Which version of A-Max IV are you using?

Will WinUAE crash/exit as soon as you load A-Max IV, or after/while loading the Mac System disk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfrog View Post
my system disk (6) has stoped workin on my real amiga, so I can`t boot amax
any ideas how to make a new one or I`m I going to have to ask someone to send me a new one
You could use Powercopy Pro for that, but it's *very* tricky to use (I can help you with it, if there are no other solutions).
After reading what you wrote below, I suspect it's your floppy drive which has problems, not your System disk (unless it was physically scratched by the floppy drive... it may happen).
Have you got a spare floppy drive to use temporarily?

Last edited by Supamax; 11 May 2009 at 17:35. Reason: merged two posts into one
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Old 11 May 2009, 17:27   #595
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can load amax4 but when you start it thats when it crashes, will have to do some tests as to which version it is but suspect it one with a rom in it

My amax disks as prowler will tell you are not very well, so I`m not realy suprised its given up the ghost
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Old 11 May 2009, 17:37   #596
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Originally Posted by Supamax View Post
You must be right about vMac. It's different from other emulators, since it seems to treat floppy disk images and hard disk images the same way.
So, no matter how big the image is (do you mean you could load a 400KB---->4.000KB oversized image and it would boot it correctly?) it sees it the right way, and all works.
That is absolutely correct, not only for vMac but Gemulator and SoftMac as well. However, SoftMac has a special method of emulating SCSI hard drives, which can be partitioned and formatted using Mac OS Disk Tools. In addition, SoftMac is able to mount real Macintosh formatted SCSI hard drives connected to the PC, in much the same way that WinUAE can mount real Amiga formatted hard drives.

Quote:
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But when I convert a 400KB---->800KB image to eADF, A-Max format, it effectively becomes an 80-tracks double-sided disk with the second group of 40 tracks absolutely empty.
This is correct as far as the emulator is concerned, and this explains why it is accepted as a valid disk image. However, the Macintosh System evidently sees the image differently, which explains why the perceived disk capacity is unchanged at 400K.

Quote:
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OK, I think I finally understood what you mean: Mac disks (even System disks) don't rely on specific tracks for its program files. So a system disk will boot, independently from file's position in the disk image. This explains why the "upgraded" images work in A-Max and Mini vMac.
Yes, this is why it's possible to copy a System disk file-by-file and it will still be bootable, provided the System folder (if it has one) has been "blessed" by the method I've described. If there is no System folder (and a couple of those disks you asked me to convert didn't have one), then even this is not necessary.

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But... what about some protected programs? If a game has some data at a specific track and expects to find it there, it will never run in Mini vMac. Am I right?
Instead, I suppose it will run in A-Max (if the dump format used takes care of tracks sequence/position etc.).
I have no knowledge of how protected disks are represented as disk images in order to get them to run correctly in emulation. However, I don't know whether this is necessary for Macintosh emulation, since I'm not aware of any protected Macintosh disks. Even the A-Max Utility disk, which contains some very advanced disk formatting tools, is not protected.

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ok got a new problem now
my system disk (6) has stoped workin on my real amiga, so I can`t boot amax
any ideas how to make a new one or I`m I going to have to ask someone to send me a new one
Download an 800kB System 6 disk image zip archive from here:
http://rolli.ch/MacPlus/
Add the 16-byte A-Max header (details earlier in the thread) to the beginning of the unzipped image using a binary file editor to get an 819216 byte file. This will make it an A-Max disk image file. Then use Emplant's Disk Converter utility version 2.0-6.0 to write this image to a 3.5-inch double density disk.
This disk will boot your A-Max emulator!

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what files do i need on a mac disk to make it bootable
Just copy the System and Finder files to an empty disk and it will be bootable.
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Old 11 May 2009, 17:58   #597
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ok thanks will see how i get on

as regards to amax4 all the versions without the rom just complain theres no rom and the only hacked one "AMAX4_HACK.dms" kills winuea
Hope get time make a little boot disk and give toni some headaches heheheh

Looks like I`m trwaling this thread later for answers heheheh
laters guys

ribbit
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Old 11 May 2009, 18:52   #598
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can load amax4 but when you start it thats when it crashes, will have to do some tests as to which version it is but suspect it one with a rom in it
Amax4-hack can run if you click Match A500 Speed, even then I having problems on WinUae and my A1200 -It looks like Amax 4 does support harddrive images.

Theres some good Mac 68k software like excel this is probably better than any Amiga SpreadSheet Id just like to getting Amax working and compare against ShapeShifter.
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Old 11 May 2009, 18:55   #599
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thanks for that boo boo

harddrive images is why I`m trying to get amax4 workin
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Old 11 May 2009, 19:05   #600
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thanks for that boo boo

harddrive images is why I`m trying to get amax4 workin
No probs Mr Frog - Its the only version that even loads on my A1200 but as soon as I try and load a disk image or a harddrive image on WinUae or my A1200 it gives the loading sign then crashes.

If your intrested in HD images ShapeShifter is good but id also like to get Amax4 working if possible.
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