Why or how did the Amiga Indie gaming scene die!

[Cpt. Hindsight]

Originally Posted by amigapd

I think the C64 and other 8 bit indie developments might be exagerated - Knight N Grail I think was released I think in 2009 and the blog for Psytronik Software hasn't been updated since Jan 2014 - unless I am looking at the wrong website.

I could have given more recent examples like Jam It! or Darkness as well. Both are very nice games.

btw: Psytronik moved here: http://psytronik.net/, but you should have a look at the Binary Zone for disk releases http://binaryzone.org/retrostore/ind...=index&cPath=2 or RGCD http://www.rgcd.co.uk/p/games.html for cartridges. Unfortunately a lot of the games are sold out pretty soon after the release, so you won't be able to buy them anymore. The digital downloads are still available though and they are usually for free about half a year/a year after the release.

[Samurai_Crow]

Am I the only one here that thinks the reprogrammable character set graphics of the C64 contributes to the ease of programming of tile mapped games? Also, I might see about documenting the FBlit sources so that FBlit.library can be used without requiring the patch into the standard blitting routines it is intended to replace.

So far I have SpriteFX.library started and TileFX.library (formerly TileMap.library) far behind. Since TileFX is basically based on the ScrollingTricks example C source code on the Aminet, it is more of a port than an actual recode and as such, I'm having a little trouble focusing on it.

How should I prioritize my tasks: FBlit.library documentation, TileFX coding and modifications, or SpriteFX.library implementation? Descriptions are available for the RetroFX (TileFX and SpriteFX) libraries at https://github.com/SamuraiCrow/RetroFX-libraries in their respective directories. Also, I may change the license to BSD or ZLib/LibPNG license instead of MIT license because I'm having second thoughts about people scavenging my source code and not giving me credit for working on the RetroFX libs. The FBlit code will remain under the MIT license at the request of the author in its respective repository at https://github.com/SamuraiCrow/fblit.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by matthey

[...]Vbcc will do some sophisticated, innovative and amazing things and other times it will make me cry. It has improved a lot over the years but development moves at Amiga pace (which does have a few advantages).

Thanks for the detailed explanation. This makes a lot of sense.
I assume that the vbcc backends are mostly code and are not data driven?

You mentioned that the 68k's CC behavior can prevent some peephole optimizations to be applied but could this be worked around by adding live analysis to the code right after the peephole window? If it can be determined that relevant bits of the CC are trashed a few instructions after the peephole window then the optimization can be applied (provided the possibility of branching is taken care of).

I have not looked at the source code so maybe this is already done to some extent or not doable with the current architecture, I guess only Phx could tell us.

Originally Posted by matthey

The new FPGA hardware is exciting but taking a long time to improve.
[...] there is some potential to bring back old Amiga users who can now easily buy almost reasonably priced hardware and possibly a few retro computer geeks. An upgraded classic Amiga is more usable than most retro computers.

I must say that aside from memory, network and storage expansions, new hardware leaves me cold (to the exception of console-devkit-like instrumenting/debugging hardware if it existed). My Amiga is a retro coding/gaming only platform and if I want to use other software I use a modern kitten.

I am willing to bet new retro users will think similarly.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Thanks for the detailed explanation. This makes a lot of sense.
I assume that the vbcc backends are mostly code and are not data driven?

The backend deals with data mostly. The C code has already been parsed and put into custom data structures by the time it reaches the backend. A good understanding of the custom structures is necessary to understand how the backend works. The backend itself is mostly code which processes the data generated by the frontend. The vbcc manual gives information on writing a backend.

http://server.owl.de/~frank/vbcc/docs/vbcc.pdf

The current source code with 68k backend is at the following link.

http://server.owl.de/~frank/tags/vbcc0_9d.tar.gz

The code is complex and intricate but it is well organized and readable (some German comments though). There are few dependencies and the source compiles on my high end Amiga with vbcc. Look at and try to compile the GCC source code in comparison some time.

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

You mentioned that the 68k's CC behavior can prevent some peephole optimizations to be applied but could this be worked around by adding live analysis to the code right after the peephole window? If it can be determined that relevant bits of the CC are trashed a few instructions after the peephole window then the optimization can be applied (provided the possibility of branching is taken care of).

I have not looked at the source code so maybe this is already done to some extent or not doable with the current architecture, I guess only Phx could tell us.

Vasm could do multi-instruction optimizations but this gets to be resource hungry (CPU and memory). Vasm is already fairly resource hungry being written in C and being cross-platform. Frank has told me before that he does not want to add multi-instruction optimizations at this time. Vasm can and does generate multiple instructions from a single instruction peephole optimizations though.

It may make more sense to move multi-instruction optimizations to the backend or possibly a new 68k instruction scheduler. Multi-instruction analysis is already done in a backend or an instruction scheduler so it makes more sense to me than the assembler. Volker and Frank may have different opinions though.

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

I must say that aside from memory, network and storage expansions, new hardware leaves me cold (to the exception of console-devkit-like instrumenting/debugging hardware if it existed). My Amiga is a retro coding/gaming only platform and if I want to use other software I use a modern kitten.

I am willing to bet new retro users will think similarly.

The old hardware is very retro cool but the I/O connections are almost all outdated and the hardware is getting old. I never want to see a floppy again. I don't know if it's the humidity where I live or what but I have had horrible luck with floppies and floppy drives. We need support for modern media cards, USB and ethernet at least. Support for SATA and HDMI/DVI isn't necessary yet but would be awesome. The FPGA Arcade and Mist are consumer retro hardware chameleons but are not designed as an Amiga upgrade. The Natami was designed from the ground up as an Amiga enhancement and shows that new FPGA hardware can be exciting and awesome. I consider it 3rd generation FPGA hardware which was ahead of its time and which made it difficult to bring out. Most of the FPGA hardware out like the FPGA Arcade and Mist I consider to be 2nd generation. If this generation of FPGA hardware is successful then we will likely see 3rd gen FPGA hardware with larger and faster FPGAs. Majsta's new accelerator will have a more powerful FPGA already.

[amigapd]

Originally Posted by Cpt. Hindsight

I could have given more recent examples like Jam It! or Darkness as well. Both are very nice games.

.

Jam it looks good - Not sure I would have been willing to pay £39 for Darkness though even with all those extra bits.

With regard to games listed in Nobody's post

Rocket smash ex
New commando
New Ghosts n goblins
New Bombjack
Bruce Lee 2
super Bread Box
Canabalt
Micro Hexagon
Donkey Kong junior
Powerglove
Knight n grail
trance sector ultimate
Sam's journey
many new quality SEUCK games
Awakening
brilliant maze

These games cover a long period of release dates with I think

1 game from 2009
1 from 2011
1 from 2012
2 from 2013
2 from 2014
5 from 2015

If we cover a similar period for the Amiga there have been some great / fun games -

Tracker Hero – 2010


Gravity Beam 2012
Downfall 2012
Agent Lux 2012
Super Sprint 2012
Sqrxz 2 – 2012
Joust – 2012
Guantlet – 2012
Sqrxz – 2012


Enemy 2 – 2013
Solid Gold – 2013
Putty Squad – 2013
International Karate – 2013
Metro Cross – 2o13
Incredible Adventures of Moebius Goatlizard 2013
Asgard met Vikings 2013


Where time Stood Still 2014
Oids 2014
Tales of Gorluth 2014
Maxwell Mouse 2014
Solomons Key 2 - 2014
Boxx 2 - - 2014


PuzCat – 2015
Henry and the Five Towers – 2015
Jay the Miner - 2015

I think sometimes we forget about Amiga releases and also sometimes forget how old other games are for other systems.

one thing I will agree is that there are no Amiga games physically released in a box with a manual - posters and extras. I think there was a physical release of Putty Squad as part of another Kickstarter project - Tales of Gorluth and Sqrxz had a physical release too but I can't think of any others recently.

One interesting thing I noticed from the Psytonik Software website is that they welcome submission for Amiga games - quote below:

"If you've written a game for the Commodore 64, ZX Spectrum 48K / 128, Amstrad CPC, VIC-20 / Commodore Plus/4 or Commodore Amiga and would like Psytronik Software to publish it for you then please send an email to kenz@binaryzone.org with the details of your production. "

I wonder if some of those Amiga games mentioned above had been released as physical games and all shown together on one website the amiga scene would be viewed as more active - sometimes games slip through the net.

I might drop them a line to see if they are still willing to publish Amiga games too - bit strange that they have existed since 1993 and never had a game submitted or good enough to release for the Amiga.

[nobody]

Actually there are dozens of releases for the c64 in 2015 I just mentioned some of the best, if I would write the mediocre ones too the list would be too big. If I would write since 2009 would possibly need one page. From the other hand its normal because c64 graphics quality could be done by one person but Amiga quality and complexity needs a team to produce something decent or one person program and draw everything for 2-3 years. Or make something like nibbly

[Coagulus]

Aw boo. No one remembers my games. ;-)

[Lazycow]

Originally Posted by amigapd

Powerglove

Nice list. You know, the Amiga version of Powerglove is still under construction?
it's already playable, but I am currently working on the graphics, because you don't want to have C64 graphics on your Amiga...
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=76817

[Adrian Browne]

Tales of gorluth has almost 200 pre-orders now. That's real sales data. That said, a higher quality, non-backbone game may garner more pre-orders than that.

[amigapd]

Originally Posted by Coagulus

Aw boo. No one remembers my games. ;-)

Apologies Coagulus - I have started to update my Amigapd website and tidy it up - part of this process is to include a page listing recent PD / shareware releases - I am currently working my way through recent releases from the last 3 years in alphabetical order - I have added a couple of your games.

http://www.amigapd.com/games.html

The idea is to have a seperate page for each game - showing a video / slideshow - links to the file / website.

There are quite a few games for me to add - so please bear with me as I work my way through - once I think I am done I will ask for feedback on any games I may have missed.

Hopefully having a page dedicated to the current Amgia scene we can promote all the great games that are still being made. In the near future I will also be looking to add to the interview section with Amiga indie programmers.

[Bugala]

@amigapd

Great Idea!
That is something I had hoped Amistore or Indiego Appstore to have fixed in future by you being able to search year by year basis all the Amiga PD releases. I was especially thinking of Indiego since it has this nice enough way to browse around and see pictures of games and have description.

But your website is similar to what I have been hoping for. The point being that all the pd games are easily foundable and you can get to see soem info and pictures about them, as well as have a download link, all in one easy spot. That way you can get some idea about the game and its quality and then decide whether you wish to check it out or not.

However, as a wish, in the end also add the possiblity to check year by year basis as well, since, even if you would add all PD games released just from 2000 on to today. It would already take some effort to go through alphabetic order and pick only year 2003 releases as example.

[amigapd]

Originally Posted by Bugala

@amigapd

However, as a wish, in the end also add the possiblity to check year by year basis as well, since, even if you would add all PD games released just from 2000 on to today. It would already take some effort to go through alphabetic order and pick only year 2003 releases as example.

As a solution I have created a two column page - the left side will list the games alphabetically and the right column by year.

Think I have almost finished games released in 2015 so far - think there are about 4 to 5 more to add - then will complete 2014.

[Graham Humphrey]

If you need a hand check out my list on a Lemon Amiga thread: http://www.lemonamiga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12254

I'm a bit slack at keeping it up to date but I think that's all completed 'classic' Amiga releases for this year so far.

[Retro1234]

http://www.leehurleyproductions.free...mes/amiga.html
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...id=4&styleid=1
I like manhole, around 2011

[TenLeftFingers]

I appreciate your openness.

[Retro1234]

Originally Posted by TenLeftFingers

I appreciate your openness.

[ppcamiga1]

It is simple. GCC is best c compiler avaible for Amiga.
If 68k is to sloow for code compiled by gcc, 68k should be replaced by faster cpu.
Classic Amiga really need better procesor than 68k.
This procesor should be bigendian beacuse all old software for amiga is bigendian,
PPC is of course ideal choice for classic Amiga, but other like mips, sparc are also welcome.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by ppcamiga1

It is simple. GCC is best c compiler avaible for Amiga.
If 68k is to sloow for code compiled by gcc, 68k should be replaced by faster cpu.
Classic Amiga really need better procesor than 68k.
This procesor should be bigendian beacuse all old software for amiga is bigendian,
PPC is of course ideal choice for classic Amiga, but other like mips, sparc are also welcome.

"PPC is of course ideal choice for classic Amiga, but other like mips, sparc are also welcome."

No... why? PPC is as dead as 68k today. 68k in FPGA has some geek factor and we will see what is possible when apollo becomes real. Whoever wanted PPC is already using it, for the rest starting with a dead CPU makes no sense at all.

[Bugala]

Originally Posted by amigapd

As a solution I have created a two column page

Great!
Something like this is exactly what I have been wishing for!

By the way, a correction. Help My Cat! was actually released at end of 2014, although only very few noticed it. Most think its 2015, since it was about may 2015 that Cgutjahr uploaded it to aminet and messaged about it, which I am very grateful to him, and it was at that point that most people who have noticed Help My Cat! at all noticed it.

And James Jacobs is not the author, I am.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by ppcamiga1

It is simple. GCC is best c compiler available for Amiga.

There isn't even official GCC support for the Amiga! GCC is powerful but it is bloated, unwieldy and it uses a completely alien environment to the Amiga. It is a pseudo standard for porting software if bringing alien software to the Amiga with an alien compiler is a priority. GCC had code quality and bug issues from about 3.3 to 4.5 (except for the Intel CPU target) probably due to the difficulty of maintaining this behemoth. Clang/LLVM was likely developed because GCC had quality and maintenance issues.

Originally Posted by ppcamiga1

If 68k is to sloow for code compiled by gcc, 68k should be replaced by faster cpu.
Classic Amiga really need better procesor than 68k.

The 68k is not inherently slow. It just was not developed for a long time. Faster clocked PPC processors available at the time of the 68060 did not blow away the 68060. Instead, a 68060 ShapeShifter Amiga was the fastest Macintosh for some time after PPC came out while using significantly less memory. Today, a 68k FPGA CPU core in a relatively cheap FPGA can outperform a 68060.

Originally Posted by ppcamiga1

This procesor should be bigendian because all old software for amiga is bigendian,
PPC is of course ideal choice for classic Amiga, but other like mips, sparc are also welcome.

68k
o CISC
o big endian

I agree that it is easier and more compatible to stay with big endian but then you choose RISC for the Amiga which is more difficult and less compatible?

Originally Posted by OlafSch

No... why? PPC is as dead as 68k today.

I prefer to say that PPC is dying but not yet dead. MIPS and SPARC are in no better shape. ARMv8 (AArch64) processors are likely to replace PPC, MIPS and SPARC. Maybe ARMv8 can succeed where these other similar RISC processors have failed because the 4th try is the charm, or is it beating another dead horse?

Originally Posted by OlafSch

68k in FPGA has some geek factor and we will see what is possible when apollo becomes real. Whoever wanted PPC is already using it, for the rest starting with a dead CPU makes no sense at all.

Yea.