Cloanto debate

[Anubis]

Didn't you just say that the discussion was pointless? In whatever case... once again, apparently Cloanto does not own the rights to the ROM's or the different versions of the OS, so it isn't up to them to decide if they should be released for free or not... what is it about this that is so hard to get? Cloanto isn't the reason that the community isn't growing if the community isn't growing because of non free OS-versions or ROM's... it is the copyright holders (or simply, the owners of the ROM's and OS-versions)!

Don't you think that without Cloanto's interest in roms original right holder might them give up the same as Atari, another very greedy company in eyes of many, did??

And yes, it is pontless, but nothing better to do on this rainy day.

Originally Posted by _ThEcRoW

No, the adf disks of workbench 3.1 are not on the AFpackage. I bought the latest AF some time ago for the videos on dvd that were offering, and looking in the data cd, i found only an adf that is named Workbench 3.1 and seems to be a modified original wb3.1 disk only suitable for packages like aiab who only ask for the install disk, but for performing a full installation of 3.1, is not feasible.
This was the thing that pissed me of, since i payed for the roms and the operating system.

This is the content of my AmigaForever:\Emulation\System\adf directory:

af-boot.adf
amiga-os-100-workbench.adf
amiga-os-110-workbench.adf
amiga-os-120-workbench.adf
amiga-os-134-workbench.adf
amiga-os-200-workbench.adf
amiga-os-204-workbench.adf
amiga-os-210-workbench.adf
amiga-os-300-workbench.adf
amiga-os-310-extras.adf
amiga-os-310-fonts.adf
amiga-os-310-install.adf
amiga-os-310-locale.adf
amiga-os-310-storage.adf
amiga-os-310-workbench.adf

Seems pretty complete to me.

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by Anubis

Don't you think that without Cloanto's interest in roms original right holder might them give up the same as Atari, another very greedy company in eyes of many, did??

We will never know, now, will we?

Originally Posted by Anubis

Don't you think that without Cloanto's interest in roms original right holder might them give up the same as Atari, another very greedy company in eyes of many, did??

I just love your assumptions and the conlusions based on these assumptions as well

[Anubis]

Glyxxx,
your list is not complete...

Even WB 1.3 is not complete. (there should be extra floppy)

WB 2.04, 2.05 and 2.1 should have 4 floppies.

WB 3.0 and 3.1 are both 6 flopies if complete.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by glwxxx

I just love your assumptions and the conlusions based on these assumptions as well

Actually after knowing you I'm sure that if there is no Cloanto, there would be Glwxxxanto, so I have to admit that you're right. Just someone else would try to expoit amiga users nostalgia. So here you go: you're right Glwxxx! (for the first time today )

@ Legerdemain - that's life...

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by Anubis

that's life...

Well... I am pretty sure though, that Cloanto didn't think 'Hey, let's put out this product that will enable people in general to try out the Amiga in a nice and simple way... but, let's not try to license the ROM's and the different OS-versions, although it would make things so much easier for the end user, because the owners of the ROM's and the OS-versions might, just might, sometime in the future release them for free, and also we might get some upset people roaming around in the various Amiga forums claiming us to suck... so let us stay away from that'.

Hope you get the irony.

Originally Posted by Anubis

Glyxxx,
your list is not complete...

Even WB 1.3 is not complete. (there should be extra floppy)

WB 2.04, 2.05 and 2.1 should have 4 floppies.

WB 3.0 and 3.1 are both 6 flopies if complete.

anyway, at least the list prooved you were wrong when you claimed:

Originally Posted by Anubis

And Glyxxx, don't play stupid. Reason Cloanto does not include WB 3.0/3.1 is that is required for other better packages such as ClassicWB, AmiSys and AIAB.

I told you, think before you make conclusions

[Anubis]

If you read couple posts back, you'll note that this is new. They are included in latest CD/DVD release of AF.

Not everyone can buy new versions every year.

Some of us get them even without paying for them... or we pay some other ways... No, I'm not thinking illegally.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

Hope you get the irony.

If you like real irony, read glwxxx first post in this topic.

And yes, I love irony (and love to read Alan Ford, if that name means anything to you ).

[Marcuz]

Originally Posted by Anubis

(and love to read Alan Ford, if that name means anything to you ).

didn't know it was translated in english. cool.

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by Anubis

If you like real irony, read glwxxx first post in this topic.

And yes, I love irony (and love to read Alan Ford, if that name means anything to you ).

That doesn't look like irony to me. Just a slightly modified version of the 'truth'. Modified to make good PR for Cloanto. Nothing new under the sun.

Originally Posted by Anubis

If you read couple posts back, you'll note that this is new. They are included in latest CD/DVD release of AF.

Not everyone can buy new versions every year.

Some of us get them even without paying for them... or we pay some other ways... No, I'm not thinking illegally.

IMHO OS3.1 adf was always in AF package. Eg. AmigaSYS supports AF as a source for the system files. They even have AF banner on their site!

What I am trying to say is that you tried to blame someone without having enough information. And in addition you made a quick conclusion it's because they compete with other packs like AIAB, AmigaSYS etc. That's what I don't like and you should stop using such a logic. Otherwise it makes it hard to discuss with you if your emotions are more important than the facts, you know.

No offends Anubis, that's just my point of view, I have nothing against you. And I am sorry if some of my previous posts were a bit ironical towards you.

[Anubis]

Glwxxx,
trust me, it is new to me (and to the product) that they included WB3.1. I was really wondering for what reason they did not include it 3 years ago. (AF4.0)

I alreay said that I like irony, and you deffending your self without any good reason is irony itself.

Again, I don't have nothing against you (that will work) and I'm sorry for jokin' about the whole 'incident' thing.

I just find it funny...

@ Marco, not sure about English, but it was well coverd in my first language. Together with Mister No, Marty Misteria, Zagor, Tex Willer... Another childhood memories that Cloanto can not take license for.

[Eny-]

Originally Posted by Legerdemain

But do you find it wrong that those that have accuired the IP's, rights or simply licensed software (like Cloanto) or hardware for sale are doing just what they have paid to do... to sell a product?

I mean, Commodore may be no more... but was it wrong that the company that bought the rights to the Amiga continued to compile and sell the A1200 and the A4000? From what you are writing, I can come to no other conclusion! I don't see your logic... sorry! To me it sounds like you are saying that only the ones that originally developed this or that should be allowed to sell their very products, and if they go defunct and someone LEGALLY buys the right to continue their line of products or sell some software, those that bought the very rights to do this or that shouldn't be allowed to do that very thing.

What you are saying makes absolutely NO sense to me...?

Well, let me explain...

I'm not saying that because Cloanto didn't developed any of the Amiga stuff they are not allowed to sell it.

IF Commodore or Escom (so I can get the message through) were still "alive" and doing the same as Nintendo (putting out new products and giving access to an old catalog of games - as is in VC's case) I wouldn't find it wrong, because they were still supporting the machine, like "they did" 20 years ago.

What I'm trying to say is that Cloanto's business strategy is not to develop new AMIGA solutions neither improve on them. Yes, they are selling AE, which IMO is a good piece of software (and they have the right to sell THAT). But in the process they are forbidding people from getting a 20 year old product (which they have the LEGAL right to sell) for free (which should be by now - I'll get to it) so one can play games that can't buy anymore (1st hand).

Why should it be free? Well, Commodore is not more. I can't buy a new Amiga anymore, I can't buy new amiga games. Next to none software is being developed for it and from what I've read here, the owners of the roms didn't care much if they were being distributed in the net or not (If it's true that it was Cloanto closing all the websites that had them, after acquiring the licenses).

That's why IMO every person are against Cloanto. For making money on a dead horse.

Personally I don't care if Cloanto sells this or that, I rather give my money to the WHDload team or Toni "WinUAE", the ones that in REALITY are keeping the scene alive.

Either way, we are just sharing our opinions. I already have the roms, LEGALLY extracted from my AMiGAs.

[amiga]

Originally Posted by Eny-

...

I rather give my money to the WHDload team or Toni "WinUAE",
...

Please Toni, don't read this

@Eny-

I understand your point of view.

If the OS and ROMs are free, they Cloanto would not need to pay for the licence, actually nobody would need to pay and OS&ROM would be freely distributable.

AFAIK Cloanto pays for AmigaOS and ROM license in order to make it legally available for others, and for money, of course. It's a company and it's their business. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't think they are the right company to blame for not allowing the people to freely use "20 years old product".

With regards to the age, why people keep saying it's 20 years old? Sure, some parts are really 20 years old, but what about AmigaOS&ROM 3.1? And what about AmigaOS3.9 that is also included in Amiga Forever package? Is it really so old? Needless to say AmigaOS3.9 CD is still available to buy.

Another issue is a belief that "old" products should be free now. No doubt you have my vote but real world doesn't run like this. And it's probably ok, just imagine I'd claim all the "products" older than 20 years as mine or freely usable for everyone! Your house for example

As I already mentioned, I was upset by the current status of MUI, it's almost 10 years since it was updated for the last time - but the author keeps asking the shareware fee for it. Is that OK for you? Even I think the software should be free by now, but I bought the keyfile anyway. I accepted the reality.

[Zetr0]

There are some good arguments raised here in this thread, and normally I would abscond myself from delving into, however I have been moved simply by the passion of ALL those posted here.

You know what I can honestly say I am PROUD to see products I can buy amiga related 15 years past the sale by date, I am honestly moved with the passion of the community fighting so very hard to claim what might be lost...

I am honoured just to be considered a part of this community.

Before I state anything I would like to point out that my views are in no way any more important than anyone else's I can only hope that I can bring a platuea to discuss this matter further before it ventures into the *thread closed* domain due to stagnation.

If this thread was a POLL then I would of voted NO, they dont suck, if however if asked Does CLOANTO hold the amiga community for ransom then perhaps i would have to agree.

However there is a simple way to rectify this, IF cloanto would sell indepently kick-roms this would eleviate a lot presure its not overly fair comparied to say the c64 or spectrum emulation scene and personally I would like to see another company sell such media as well, either as downloadable content or disk (floppy PC/Amiga) to ones door

I do feel discomfort when I see a company hold people to ransom as some see it, after all one cannot have access all those cool games/apps TOSEC or WHD (work by wich was not done by them cannot be used unless you buy from them) . From this point of view its easy to hate such a provider.

but if we flip the coin...

by doing this we change to one of many points of view, but if had sold on my amiga hardware many moons ago, trying to get back into the scene, trying to scratch every post and website just to get a few games and apps here and there.

Looking at Amiga For Ever as a suite or compendium and form this POV it is a good product, several CD's packed with MORE content than an 1MBit DSL line could Download in 12 hours (not to mention how long it would take to find the stuff).

So for Community

Should Kick-roms be free, in my opinion only upto 3.0 versions 3.1 or greater should not be free or atleast have some tangible cost associated with them. i would like to see a lot of GPL release of the version 1x to 3.0 this would premote the community to adapt modify and release specific kickstarts for specific perhaps even NEW hardware like an amiga in a joystick running onf CF cards principle.

Do I hold cloanto to blame for this... I can honeslty say I cannot as much as i might want to. there making good on a bad situation and if it does hurt us fellow amigans i would say it would be absolutly nothing compare to the direction, false promises and complete bollocks from amiga inc.

That being said, nothings exclusive right? do cloanto have exclusive rights for kick-rom re-sale? I doubt amiga inc would lock it in such a way.... surely if one could get a re-sale right then prehaps a non-profit busines could be in order? this i think would show all just what the AMIGA community is made of!

And all those that create for the amiga, albiet compendiums of software, creators of interface for all of such, and new interesting hardware all would be welcome... with open arms welcome back home to the blessed community that they serve....

Amen.

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by Eny-

What I'm trying to say is that Cloanto's business strategy is not to develop new AMIGA solutions neither improve on them. Yes, they are selling AE, which IMO is a good piece of software (and they have the right to sell THAT). But in the process they are forbidding people from getting a 20 year old product (which they have the LEGAL right to sell) for free (which should be by now - I'll get to it) so one can play games that can't buy anymore (1st hand).

No... really... they are not forbidding people from getting a 20 year old product for free (unless you mean that they might *POSSIBLY* have done so INDIRECTLY by having licensed the ROM's and the OS's for sale with AmigaForever). But still... let's for a second speculate that Cloanto hadn't licensed the ROM's... even so there is nothing that proves that the ROM's would have been free by now. Nothing at all (unless someone has spoken directly to the owners of the ROM's and the OS's and have gotten the word that is indeed is this way, that Cloanto is the reason for the ROM's not being released to the public for free).

But, on the other hand, yes, there might be a chance that things would have been looking differently if Cloanto hadn't purchased the licenses. But, according to me, that is such a big if that I can find no meaning about thinking about it at all. There are a lot of things that could have been different. Commodore could have put some effort into realising the potential of their hardware developers and gotten some new technology out on the market instead of playing it safe not updating their hardware unless absolutely neccessary. Escom could have played their cards better and not gone bankrupt. Amiga Inc. could have aquired the Commodore trademark and ALL the Amiga related IP's there is and gotten something new out the door since long. Things could have been looking extremely different by now. But it doesn't. And considering all the events that have been happening around Commodore and the Amiga IP's during the years... Cloanto doesn't really seem to play such a big part in it all... besides delivering a good emulation package to those interested (and I think that has been their intention all along, not to pester the Amiga loving community by licensing the ROM's and older OS's making the owners realising that they have got some cash to earn from the software).

But, just like I have said before... I have not got any clue as of what Cloanto has been up to when it comes to being involved in shutting down this or that site on the net. If they have been doing such things, well, then I think it is rather silly of them (but it could also be a matter of them having such a responsability due to the licensing)... but no matter what, it is just a matter of protecting their business. Silly or not. It doesn't really affect my opinion of them as a whole, in any case (but I do not have such a strong opinion on anything related to Cloanto, to be honest, since I have not been in touch with them or their products for a very long time).

Originally Posted by Eny-

Why should it be free? Well, Commodore is not more. I can't buy a new Amiga anymore, I can't buy new amiga games. Next to none software is being developed for it and from what I've read here, the owners of the roms didn't care much if they were being distributed in the net or not (If it's true that it was Cloanto closing all the websites that had them, after acquiring the licenses).

Well... I see your logic, it is perfectly clear to me... and I do in all honesty agree... I too think that the old ROM's and the old Workbenches should have been released to the public quite some time ago, since they are not part of what is being developed as of today under the Amiga brand (mainly OS4, the mentioned OS5 and AmigaForever... that is). But... I tend to put my personal opinons aside when it comes to matters such as this... because my opinions won't change a thing unless they are put into action... like actually trying to convince the owners of the ROM's to release them for free, for example (which, according to me, would be a much more constructive way of dealing with the situation rather than blaming Cloanto for the downfall, and lack of growth, of the remaning Amiga community).

But that is just my personal opinon.

Originally Posted by Eny-

Personally I don't care if Cloanto sells this or that, I rather give my money to the WHDload team or Toni "WinUAE", the ones that in REALITY are keeping the scene alive.

Well... WHDLoad I have registered... and I would say that it is the best piece of software I have ever paid for. I use it on a daily basis and I do almost consider their price tag being ridicilously low. If I would have been a bit richer than I am I would probably register WHDLoad to all of my Amiga owning friends that haven't registered already. Actually, if it hadn't been for WHDLoad my interest in my two A1200's wouldn't have been as big as it is today.

When realising that my towerised A1200 with an Blizzard 1260 card was rather badly suited for gaming (and my setup in general, especially since I have a Mediator/Voodoo solution which gives me the option of either using a regular monitor for RTG in combination with a TV/1084 for native screenmodes, which takes up too much space... or using a non 24-bit scandoubler, since no scandoubler, capable of showing AGA correctly, exists for the A1200, in combination with a monitorswitch to have both AGA and RTG on the same screen... none of those alternatives suited me) I simply bought myself another A1200, put in a large 2.5" HD and a Blizzard 1230 card and registered WHDLoad... it feels almost like a laptop computer that I can bring with me everywhere I go... I am almost having more fun with this setup today than I ever had with my A1200 back in the days when Commodore was still alive and kickin' (and the years thereafter until the commercial aspect of the computer and its software simply went downhill way too far).

Oh.

Well.

Anyways.

[redblade]

They could at least make upto Kick1.3 free with the source code as well. Or if not that, up to Kick1.2, Hell something is better than nothing.