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Old 12 September 2012, 23:00   #1
Geijer
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Lightbulb Picasso IV vs Cybervision 64/3D vs RetinaBLT Z3 (4MB)

Hi,

It looks like I have three GFX cards to choose between

Which is best for my Amiga 4000D fitted with GVP 4060ver2, Deneb and Indivision AGA MK2?

Any opinions? pros/cons? Compatability with Deneb and Indivision?
  • PicassoIV (with FlickerFixer)
  • Cybervision 64/3D (with FlickerFixer/Scandoubler)
  • RetinaBLT Z3 (4MB)

Please, enlighten me, thanks!
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Old 12 September 2012, 23:40   #2
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My opinion:

The Picasso IV is the most desirable, it is really expandable and reliable, but today, it costs its weight in gold.

The CyberVision 64/3d is a nice gfx card, but then it is the slowest of the bunch.

Since you have an Indivision I wouldnt care for flicker fixers. I highly recommend you get the Retina Z3, it will probably be the cheapest and has lots of interesting hardware features.

Good luck anyway
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Old 13 September 2012, 17:17   #3
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You ask because you own those boards ? If not, I would recommend the Cybervision 64 (NOT 3D) which has an automatic passthrough between RTG and SD/FF.

My A4k System : Cybervision 64/Indivision AGA 4000 MKI/Delfina Lite overclocked/DENEB/Last FASTATA/Cyberstorm MKII

Last edited by CrashMidnick; 13 September 2012 at 17:25.
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Old 13 September 2012, 19:12   #4
Geijer
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Yes, did an inventation last night and found out that I own all three of them and that is to much together with all other Amigagears I have laying around.

Sounds great with automatic passthrough...

Ofcause the one I don't own is the one I should go for

What resolutions and speed can I expect from C64 compared to the PIV and Retina card?
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Old 13 September 2012, 19:29   #5
source
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I have my cybedrvision643D resolution set to 1440 x 800 in 16 bit. I can't remember the refresh speed. As for the Picasso IV I can't specify.
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Old 13 September 2012, 22:28   #6
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Ok, so if it was me I would stick with the PIV even if it is not the best for LCD screens (for Native Amiga screens as it produces vertical banding on most monitors). But it is the fastest zorroIII graphic card ever made IMHO (I own two of them). I have one in an A2k with a tekmagic 060, it faster than my A4k under WB and it operates in ZII mode.
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Old 19 September 2012, 07:12   #7
Damion
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Personally, I would ditch the Indivision and run the PIV. Quality of the PIV scandoubler is better than the Indi MKI at least. Second option would be Retina and Indivision on the same monitor (using DVI on the Indi) and using the monitor to switch. The latter option might be interesting when the Indi config tool is released.
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Old 19 September 2012, 09:23   #8
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The PIV scandoubler is not better in my experience. It's not bad at all, but it outputs a weird resolution (760x603 or something, can't remember exactly right now) and several monitors I tried had trouble adjusting to that image properly. I suppose they expect either 640x480 or 800x600 these days and not something in between. No problems at all with Indivision mk1. Have not tried mk2 yet.
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Old 19 September 2012, 09:58   #9
Geijer
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I have problems with the PIV scandoubler and my Benq FP241W, can't get PAL screens to work. Thats one of the reasons I bought the Indie.

Is there any experts on how to configure the PIV to maximize the usage of it?
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Old 19 September 2012, 10:38   #10
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My memory is not fresh on this, but you need the appropriate config tool for Picasso96 which will allow you to adjust the screen mode the PIV uses for the scandoubler output. Most likely the problem is that you are outputting 50Hz at the moment, which most monitors can't manage. If you set it to 60 (or 100 even, if your monitor handles that) Hz it will probably work, though there may still be banding issues due to the exotic resolution.

EDIT: Here was the thread with my experiences, perhaps it helps.
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Old 19 September 2012, 23:01   #11
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@ajk sorry to intrude, I have same 'banding' problems. how did you "manage to coax the earlier Fujitsu-Siemens into displaying the scandoubler output without bands" ?
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Old 19 September 2012, 23:56   #12
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@orange:

Get into your monitor's menu & find the Phase/Clock setting (I've seen it named either way).
Adjusting these settings, I was able to completely eliminate banding with several different monitor & scan-doubler configurations.
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Old 20 September 2012, 08:38   #13
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@orange

Yeah, as UberFreak said. Just have to keep trying various combinations of the different settings and hope that the image still stays relatively centered.
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Old 20 September 2012, 10:16   #14
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The big niggle with the PIV scandoubler is that it requires some not-obvious fiddling with the PicassoModeTNG tool to get the best out of it. However, the resolution of a scandoubled PAL screen at 50Hz is no different than what the Indi MKI displays. UberFreak and ajk hit it on the head, the monitor's clock and phase settings will almost always need tweaking. It's easier to get a perfect image on some monitors than others, for various reasons (usually the monitor's adjustment ranges might not be sufficient), but I had to go through this same process with my MKI.

If you had a PIV, I can't see the advantage to using an MKI Indivision over the PIV scandoubler. It can't do 75/100Hz PAL (rock solid flicker-free CRT usage) and the image quality isn't nearly as crisp, maybe due to the ribbon cable. (Even the CV3D scandoubler has better text quality than the MKI Indie, just compare them.) Also, you would lose easy auto-switching of native/rtg modes. The PIV scandoubler also switches native resolutions instantly, there's no few second "delay" when watching demos that change resolution. On the other hand, for use on its own, I really liked the perfectly synched no-hassle 50Hz mode and easy adjustment.

The Indi MKII is obviously a different beast - IMHO the DVI connection is interesting as it should eliminate the image quality deficit of the MKI. I'm sure it will also be easier to adjust, with more features than the PIV scandoubler. Assuming a config tool, I'd use the Retina/MKII combo.
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Old 20 September 2012, 11:45   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damion View Post
However, the resolution of a scandoubled PAL screen at 50Hz is no different than what the Indi MKI displays
Are you sure about this? At least the PicassoModeTNG tool lists the resolution as 760x603 (though the monitor says 800x600, but I think it probably just rounds to the nearest standard one), and I think this is exactly the reason why most monitors don't auto-adjust to it. The Indivision output would appear to be a standard 800x600. I suppose it might be possible to upgrade the firmware of the PIV to use another resolution, but I dunno if Mastatabs has any plans to do so.



As for the image quality difference between the mkI Indivision and the PIV, I can't say I'd have personally noticed much, but then again the little monitor I have used both with only has a resolution of 1024x768, so the image is pretty soft due to scaling anyway. Might have to do some comparisons using a higher res monitor. I also use a shielded ribbon cable with the Indy.

Anyway, either option is certainly usable, the choice just depends on the exact needs and wants.
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Old 20 September 2012, 15:49   #16
Geijer
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Thank you guys for som really good input regarding the PIV, will do som test when I get home...
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Old 05 December 2014, 09:14   #17
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Sorry to kick this tired cow...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajk View Post
Are you sure about this? At least the PicassoModeTNG tool lists the resolution as 760x603 (though the monitor says 800x600, but I think it probably just rounds to the nearest standard one), and I think this is exactly the reason why most monitors don't auto-adjust to it.
Actually, you're right. I've been fiddling with my PIV the last few days trying to get a perfect image on some LCDs, and not having much luck.

Even adjusting manually, most monitors only give you so much calibration range - and the further the screenmode is from something standard, the less chance you have of achieving perfection.

You can fiddle with the sync time values to change the size of the displayed image, and try to get something within the adjustable range that reduces (or maybe eliminates) banding, but ofc getting all that and the frequency settings dialed in for smooth scrolling is nigh impossible.

So far:

Eizo S1501: No problem configuring an almost perfectly synced 50Hz PAL mode, no banding, game scrolling nearly flawless. Two small borders to deal with (no screen centering adjustments, just a minor niggle).

Every other monitor (Eizo S1932, two FORIS models, some old/worthless ones): No chance, massive banding, signal out of range, non-60Hz motion displayed incorrectly, etc etc. On some monitors you can turn scaling off and eliminate banding, but if the monitor is large enough, this leaves you only a tiny square to look at. (Naturally, some of these issues have nothing to do with the PIV.)

75Hz gets a nearly perfect image on the S1932, with a full centered screen and just a touch of banding left after adjusting (soooo close!). *edit - 50Hz too, overall this is a pretty good monitor for the PIV*

Obviously, the designers had productivity and quality in mind, rather than LCDs and pinball games. Still my favorite, despite the niggles.

Last edited by Damion; 05 December 2014 at 10:32.
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Old 05 December 2014, 11:27   #18
Michael
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Always wondered why most LCD with 1024 pxl hight (1280x1024) can not scale a 640x512 PAL sized screen to 2x2 pixels, but go fuzzy obviously with full screen in 640x480. And they don't offer vertical adjustments! only horizontal.
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Old 05 December 2014, 11:30   #19
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I wonder if a brand created a monitor that's especially compatible with retro systems, would they be able to sell loads of that monitor?
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Old 05 December 2014, 11:35   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancalimon View Post
I wonder if a brand created a monitor that's especially compatible with retro systems, would they be able to sell loads of that monitor?
Definitely - there's an huge request for 15-31KHz monitors, be them used for Neo Geo, Arcade or SNES... And Amiga of course

Someone should nudge the guys in China
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