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Old 17 August 2018, 11:04   #1
jotd
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Thoughts about creating a scandoubler/flickerfixer

why noone wants to do 30KHz VGA output? neither in riser boards or new boards. Is it really difficult? (I'm not bullying since I have 2 15KHz capable monitors and a RCA/HDMI converter, just curious).

Last edited by jotd; 17 August 2018 at 14:07.
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Old 17 August 2018, 11:34   #2
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there are solutions. but as everything is closed and not even semiopen (jed files etc) then. sadly we are here with no solution.

but it is not just to add a clockmultiplier
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Old 17 August 2018, 11:56   #3
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you can hold meetings by fax if you're organized enough

Slightly off topic: why noone wants to do 30KHz VGA output? neither in riser boards or new boards. Is it really difficult? (I'm not bullying since I have 2 15KHz capable monitors and a RCA/HDMI converter, just curious).


Do deinterlace you need to render into a buffer. Needs ram and it’s a PITA imho. Off the shelf scart to HDMI converters do a better job and they’re 20 quid each. So not worth it in my opinion.
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Old 17 August 2018, 12:04   #4
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Yes, now that VGA isn't the standard anymore, you're right. The only issue with HDMI converters is that they need power, so that means an extra USB/AC plug, and you cannot power from the miggy itself because no USB.
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Old 17 August 2018, 12:28   #5
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Does everybody else get 'flashy' icons etc using the cheap HDMI converters when the image is 'moving' (ie, just after moving a window full of icons) or is it just me? I'm talking about interlaced modes here, btw. Also happens when moving the mouse cursor over things.

The only reason I ask is because its the only thing that would motivate me to try to work on something better. An opensource indi-like could be pretty awesome. I'm too far down the learning curve for that though.

Or i just have a broken HDMI converter! Which is why i'm asking, haha
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Old 17 August 2018, 12:52   #6
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Does everybody else get 'flashy' icons etc using the cheap HDMI converters when the image is 'moving' (ie, just after moving a window full of icons) or is it just me? I'm talking about interlaced modes here, btw. Also happens when moving the mouse cursor over things.

The only reason I ask is because its the only thing that would motivate me to try to work on something better. An opensource indi-like could be pretty awesome. I'm too far down the learning curve for that though.

Or i just have a broken HDMI converter! Which is why i'm asking, haha


Nature of the beast with interlace. It’s two frames to update alternating lines.
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Old 17 August 2018, 13:00   #7
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Nature of the beast with interlace. It’s two frames to update alternating lines.
I'd wondered that - so it would be the same with every scan doubler then I guess, unless you had a framebuffer that progressively updated the image at half the refresh rate of the original (waiting for the two half frames) - which I guess would be craptastic in terms of lag and jitter etc.

Oh well! Good to know my HDMI converter isn't borked.
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Old 17 August 2018, 13:38   #8
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You can't win this one.. The Amiga updates those graphics every frame, even though it takes two frames to create a progressive frame out of an interlaced picture.

The A3000's Amber flickerfixer suffers from the same problem.
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Old 17 August 2018, 13:49   #9
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You can't win this one.. The Amiga updates those graphics every frame, even though it takes two frames to create a progressive frame out of an interlaced picture.

The A3000's Amber flickerfixer suffers from the same problem.
Oh i see! Aside from the awesome look, Amber was once the reason I lusted for a 3000 over a 4000. I guess it wouldn't actually be that much different to what I have.

What i'd love to get into long term, hobby wise, is the graphical end of the wedge amigas. Again i'm too far down the learning curve for this in terms of hardware, but projects like the 530 are a great first step.

The world could use an opensource graphics card for the wedge amigas, in my opinion, from both a learning perspective and simply as an alternate route to the vampire etc.

John
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Old 17 August 2018, 14:00   #10
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Split from the hw developers collaborating thread. Please try to keep on topic you guys.
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Old 17 August 2018, 14:01   #11
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The OSSC already exists. Some custom Amiga specific firmware for that would perhaps be an interesting project.
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Old 17 August 2018, 14:08   #12
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BTW I didn't mean a flicker fixer but a horizontal scandoubler (thanks for creating a new thread sorry for the initial trolling)
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Old 17 August 2018, 14:22   #13
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This may seem like a dumb question, but do cards like the indi work by reserving an area of memory address space and then a driver simply throwing graphics calls to it? Then again i imagine thats how all graphics cards work.

I just couldn't understand why it sits atop the denise - is this to enable a passthrough for standard graphics?
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Old 17 August 2018, 14:28   #14
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The Indivision is a bit special. The ECS model recreates the Denise in an FPGA, I believe. This allows it to output the same image at whatever rate it pleases. The AGA version samples the signal from the top of the Lisa chip and outputs a double scan analogue signal (also digital in the mk2 version), but might not contain an entire Lisa recreation inside it. These are closed source components, so I'm just parroting what I read somewhere and my recollection may be incorrect..

The Indi ECS's special sauce is via additional registers, it does not (and can not from where it's sitting) add any memory to the system. Naturally any software using the enhanced features of it must allocate some RAM for storing the data.

For a "normal" scandoubler/flickerfixer, please read the theory of operation at the end of this manual: http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.co...2320manual.lha

Last edited by Jope; 17 August 2018 at 14:35.
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Old 17 August 2018, 14:31   #15
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The only issue with HDMI converters is that they need power, so that means an extra USB/AC plug, and you cannot power from the miggy itself because no USB.
It should be doable from the Amiga though - a passthrough on the joystick port for example, or the external floppy connector if you can find a connector.

Recently I've rebuilt an Amiga 500 PSU, and have added a 5V output using a standard 2.1mm DC jack by request of the owner so that he can run his PLIPBox off it without needing a separate PSU.
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Old 17 August 2018, 14:45   #16
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For a "normal" scandoubler/flickerfixer, please read the theory of operation at the end of this manual: http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.co...2320manual.lha
Thanks...

In the A600 the ECS sits atop the 602n, with nothing on top of denise - i assume the expansion header has access to the same lines as denise does, so that it is equivalent to being on top?
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Old 17 August 2018, 15:54   #17
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Sort of, it sniffs the custom chip bus happenings via the trapdoor address and data lines.
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Old 17 August 2018, 16:40   #18
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Isnt the indivision ECS basically a deniese in FPGA?
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Old 17 August 2018, 17:03   #19
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That's what I remember reading at some point.. The only released component of the Clone-A :-)
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Old 17 August 2018, 19:00   #20
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I've been tinkering around with this idea. Check out my thread here;

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=93092

At the moment, I would like to finish the documentation of my 68SEC000 accelerator so it can be published (80% of the work in 20% of the time kinda thing- the last 20% in 800% of the time :P) but I would like to first create a RBG TTL interface for the cheap and simple TTL TFTs.

This would then perhaps turn into a scan doubler. There is some good info in the thread.
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