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Old 01 July 2017, 18:09   #121
emufan
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Originally Posted by Lord Aga View Post
Take a look at your own posts man.

Djole overreacted and got banned.
he had his chance to defend - a week earlier:
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Originally Posted by emufan View Post
Djole501: joined jun 2017 - purpose: bashing.

so whats different in your posts - [strike]calm down[/strike] stfu yourself - i for myself enjoy reading what matthey has to say.
right after his statement:
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Originally Posted by Djole501 View Post
Its his project, not yours and you have nothing to say about it so just stfu and let him do what he wants to do.
and yes, he is a minion and he should not come back, we dont need such individuals here.

*overreacted* give me a break!

Last edited by emufan; 01 July 2017 at 18:16.
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Old 01 July 2017, 18:19   #122
Lord Aga
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Ok man, you're painting your own picture...
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Old 01 July 2017, 18:42   #123
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
There are full featured Cyclone 5 boards for around 100$ ...



My standalone candidate:
  • Cyclone V (110K LEs)
  • 1GB DDR3 SDRAM
  • 1 Gigabit Ethernet
  • USB
  • HDMI TX, compatible with DVI 1.0 and HDCP v1.4
  • Three 50MHz clock sources from the clock generator
  • Two 40-pin expansion headers
  • One Arduino expansion header (Uno R3 compatibility), can be connected with Arduino shields
  • One 10-pin Analog input expansion header (shared with Arduino Analog input)
  • A/D converter, 4-pin SPI interface with FPGA

Here for just 130$!





And it got a 800MHz Dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 processor on board:

Use it as coprocessor to watch videos, or to run a full blown web-browser.

Or use ist as FPU-Coprozessor...



So how much is a license of the apollo-core?


This is mental. Should definitely be a standalone hardware!!
I also want to know how much it'd be to get an Apollo license
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Old 01 July 2017, 18:58   #124
DamienD
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@emufan & Lord AGA; calm it down please and let's get back on topic
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Old 01 July 2017, 18:59   #125
emufan
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Originally Posted by Photon View Post
At one point there would have been a use for word processing/layout, but paper is gone today.
there is Pagestream with pdf output build in since the latest scene release.
since they are still somehow in business, maybe a chance for a revival.

@DamienD: already on topic.
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Old 01 July 2017, 19:05   #126
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Anyone posting anything regarding flaming, will receive a 3 day ban. Anyone engaging in flaming gets a two week ban.

This is not open for discussion. Stay on topic, keep your personal opinions to yourself and behave like decent human beings.

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Old 01 July 2017, 19:29   #127
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With the cyber-hacking apocalypse nearly upon us as a result of an influx of ransomware in recent weeks I'd say one could ride out the storm by safely browsing he internet with a Vampire equipped Amiga. Just another suggestion. Reminds me of a movie where they had to build an old-tech analogue bomb when all other digital equipment had failed. What was that movie? Godzilla? Hope someone can further develop web browsers for Vampired Amiga.
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Old 01 July 2017, 19:52   #128
Havie
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Originally Posted by Sinphaltimus View Post
Can I just say I lol'ed so hard when I read this "68STFU080"?
Just read this myself and was going to post too! What a brilliant name for a chip - all companies should use it...
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Old 01 July 2017, 19:54   #129
matthey
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
It lacks MMU too, so... 68EC080 is the most correct. Most software than can deal with such also identify it as 68EC040, from what I have seen.
The Motorola "EC" designation lacks an MMU and FPU. The Apollo Core supposedly has an MPU (Memory Protection Unit) but lacks virtual addressing which is a requirement of a modern MMU. I was being conservative in calling it a 68LC080 (with MMU but no FPU) but it probably should be called a 68EC080 if using a Motorola like nomenclature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
There are full featured Cyclone 5 boards for around 100$ ...

My standalone candidate:
  • Cyclone V (110K LEs)
  • 1GB DDR3 SDRAM
  • 1 Gigabit Ethernet
  • USB
  • HDMI TX, compatible with DVI 1.0 and HDCP v1.4
  • Three 50MHz clock sources from the clock generator
  • Two 40-pin expansion headers
  • One Arduino expansion header (Uno R3 compatibility), can be connected with Arduino shields
  • One 10-pin Analog input expansion header (shared with Arduino Analog input)
  • A/D converter, 4-pin SPI interface with FPGA
Here for just 130$!

And it got a 800MHz Dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 processor on board:
Use it as coprocessor to watch videos, or to run a full blown web-browser.
Or use ist as FPU-Coprozessor...

So how much is a license of the apollo-core?
Too much if you have to ask .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
I am suggesting this board for real.
I am quite sure if I would order 100+ I would qualify for the "education" price of $99.
So how difficult would it be to adapt the apollo-core for that?
I assume it would have to talk to the ARM side for USB and network and probably use the display-buffer of it as well ... but that would save LEs in the end.

Maybe someone (other than me) could ask Gunnar about it?
You would probably end up needing specialized drivers on the ARM side and there would be latencies introduced from data movement and copying in some cases. It depends on the interface between the ARM and FPGA. Gunnar has looked at such setups before and has probably used such boards (including much higher end ones). Chris designed a sandwich board which mated with a standalone FPGA board to create an accelerator. Gunnar thought he could use the caches from one of the ARM boards as Apollo Core caches as well. The features and price are nice with some of these boards but there is significant work configuring them to your purpose and then you don't control availability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_skroht View Post
With the cyber-hacking apocalypse nearly upon us as a result of an influx of ransomware in recent weeks I'd say one could ride out the storm by safely browsing he internet with a Vampire equipped Amiga. Just another suggestion. Reminds me of a movie where they had to build an old-tech analogue bomb when all other digital equipment had failed. What was that movie? Godzilla? Hope someone can further develop web browsers for Vampired Amiga.
Security through obscurity works. Part of the problem with modern 68k web browsers is they are slow. Many use an FPU so it will be interesting to see how the Vampire softFPU performs with something like the "official" 68k Amiga NetSurf.

Last edited by matthey; 01 July 2017 at 20:00.
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Old 01 July 2017, 20:07   #130
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You would probably end up needing specialized drivers on the ARM side and there would be latencies introduced from data movement and copying in some cases. It depends on the interface between the ARM and FPGA. Gunnar has looked at such setups before and has probably used such boards (including much higher end ones). Chris designed a sandwich board which mated with a standalone FPGA board to create an accelerator. Gunnar thought he could use the caches from one of the ARM boards as Apollo Core caches as well. The features and price are nice with some of these boards but there is significant work configuring them to your purpose and then you don't control availability.
I would have no problem with utilizing a slave linux/bsd kernel on the ARM side for drivers (usb, ethernet, drives, display initialization, etc). It would do it's work in the shadows and a user would not have to care about this.

"Altera’s SoC integrates an ARM-based hard processor system (HPS) consisting of processor, peripherals and memory interfaces tied seamlessly with the FPGA fabric using a high-bandwidth interconnect backbone."
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Old 01 July 2017, 20:15   #131
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Originally Posted by TrashyMG View Post
That page just says "Products using APOLLO CORE: " - It's still two different projects, plus if people want to license the Apollo core for their own things they can do it and no doubt Gunnar would put those products on that page.


That would be false if the Apollo Core is a different thing.


This sounds to me like, I'm selling a car based on an 1000hp Mercedes++ engine. (But you only get the 600hp engine, because I want to sell the 1000hp engine at a premium to other projects of mine). Oh, and when you get to the interstate (FLoating Point) you have to take the a tricycle you have to get yourself (softcpu) out of your trunk and go for a ride with that.
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Old 01 July 2017, 20:43   #132
Gorf
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That would be false if the Apollo Core is a different thing.


This sounds to me like, I'm selling a car based on an 1000hp Mercedes++ engine. (But you only get the 600hp engine, because I want to sell the 1000hp engine at a premium to other projects of mine). Oh, and when you get to the interstate (FLoating Point) you have to take the a tricycle you have to get yourself (softcpu) out of your trunk and go for a ride with that.
Hi Michael

I guess that topic is closed and everything is said...
(i even made the same car-analogy)

this seems just to lead to unwanted flame wars.
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Old 01 July 2017, 20:47   #133
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Hi Michael



I guess that topic is closed and everything is said...

(i even made the same car-analogy)



this seems just to lead to unwanted flame wars.


Ah, missed a few posts (putting two kids in a bathtub and trying to read a thread, stupid me :S). I now read that indeed, but thanks for informing me anyway.
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Old 01 July 2017, 21:17   #134
matthey
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I would have no problem with utilizing a slave linux/bsd kernel on the ARM side for drivers (usb, ethernet, drives, display initialization, etc). It would do it's work in the shadows and a user would not have to care about this.
An ARM I/O processor could probably offload some of the 68k processing. The big work would be creating all the software drivers (half on ARM side and half on Amiga side). FPGA experts would probably be needed just to bring the board up with 68k+Amiga chip set and provide a drive of some kind. You would want a lot of Amiga developers onboard with that board configuration to make it worthwhile. The standalone FPGA boards like the FPGA Arcade and MiST already have an FPGA with ARM configuration but don't have as big of an FPGA and cost much more because they are not mass produced. A 2nd generation FPGA Arcade is planned with a bigger and more modern FPGA.

I thought about trying to license the Apollo Core as well. I would need the license to include all HDL sources and perpetual unlimited modification and distribution rights for multiple devices. Perhaps MikeJ would be interested in creating a more practical and compatible 68k core with it if he could include it in his FPGA Arcade and the sources are not too much of a mess. I do like the idea of moving to a large FPGA where there is room for a 68k compatible FPU, at least a 128 bit wide SIMD unit (not sharing the integer register file so floating point could eventually be added), MMU with x86 PAE/ARM LPAE type support and multi-core support to work toward an eventual ASIC. I doubt I would receive as favorable of a license as the Vampire and it may be more cost effective to decap a 68060 and turn it into sythesizable HDL (costly and time consuming but the patents should all be expired).
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Old 01 July 2017, 21:19   #135
Gorf
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Ah, missed a few posts (putting two kids in a bathtub and trying to read a thread, stupid me :S). I now read that indeed, but thanks for informing me anyway.
Or as we say in Germany:

"Try not to flush the child with the bathwater!"
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Old 01 July 2017, 21:36   #136
michaelz
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Or as we say in Germany:



"Try not to flush the child with the bathwater!"


In the Netherlands we would say; "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"
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Old 01 July 2017, 21:48   #137
Gorf
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In the Netherlands we would say; "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"
Yes that is the literal translation!
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Old 01 July 2017, 22:08   #138
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An ARM I/O processor could probably offload some of the 68k processing. The big work would be creating all the software drivers (half on ARM side and half on Amiga side). FPGA experts would probably be needed just to bring the board up with 68k+Amiga chip set and provide a drive of some kind.
One could probably reuse some code from AROS-hosted in an non-hosted way.
At least to start with, it would be enough if a linux-kernel takes care of the drives (sd-card, usb) and you can access them via a network-filesystem, that needs to be in ROM to allow booting.
That would probably offer even more performance than native drivers.

And you write that Amiga2linux filesystem once and can reuse it on any board with a FPGA/ARM combo.
Same for keyboard, mouse, other usb peripherals.

Later inexpensive arduino-shields for original joysticks, keyboards, floppies.

I am not sure about the display - writing to a linux frame buffer would eat up quite some bandwidth and performance I guess - so that should be native a soon a possible.

Quote:
I thought about trying to license the Apollo Core as well. I would need the license to include all HDL sources and perpetual unlimited modification and distribution rights for multiple devices. Perhaps MikeJ would be interested in creating a more practical and compatible 68k core with it if he could include it in his FPGA Arcade and the sources are not too much of a mess. I do like the idea of moving to a large FPGA where there is room for a 68k compatible FPU, at least a 128 bit wide SIMD unit (not sharing the integer register file so floating point could eventually be added), MMU with x86 PAE/ARM LPAE type support and multi-core support to work toward an eventual ASIC. I doubt I would receive as favorable of a license as the Vampire and it may be more cost effective to decap a 68060 and turn it into sythesizable HDL (costly and time consuming but the patents should all be expired).
I am clearly the wrong person to ask for a license as well

Sure - I am all in for a larger an faster FPGA, but available boards are much more expensive as soon as you go for something bigger.
Not sure how many people are willing to spend 1500€ or more.

Last edited by Gorf; 01 July 2017 at 22:33.
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Old 01 July 2017, 22:32   #139
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Not sure how many people are willing to spend 1500€ or more.
Well, I wouldnt be so pesimistic. You can see AmigaOne X motherboards been sold by much more than that with success. I would never buy one, but that doesnt mean that some others wont. There is definately a niche market segment for expensive Amigaish toys.
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Old 01 July 2017, 22:46   #140
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Well, I wouldnt be so pesimistic. You can see AmigaOne X motherboards been sold by much more than that with success. I would never buy one, but that doesnt mean that some others wont. There is definately a niche market segment for expensive Amigaish toys.
The problem with these boards is: they are much more expensive, but not linear more powerful. Sure - you will have much more LEs on your FPGA, but you need something to fill it with. After AGA+ and Apollo or some other 68K-clone with FPU ... what do you use the space for? Who is going to write all the HDL?
Going multicore would be the logical next step. Getting AOS/AROS to use it is an other thing.

But having a standalone for about 200€ with all licenses and AOS, I guess many many people would say "shut up and take my money!"
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