Poll: What KS would you prefer in a Vampire... Aros or KS3.1 - Page 2

IanP · 13 February 2016, 01:06

AROS 68k is in a catch22 situation. It's got some issues so almost nobody uses it and little effort is put into improving AROS 68k as almost nobody uses it. Instead developers spend time patching Amiga OS 3.x. The Vampire features combined with AROS 68k can be the catalyst to get AROS improved beyond anything Amiga OS 3.x will ever achieve.

Amiga1992 · 13 February 2016, 01:21

Putting AROS into a device like the Vampire would just hinder its usability and would be detrimental for the Vampire.
You can't just ask the team to "jump together in the river", I rather leave AROS behind in limbo than kill Vampire by sporting an incomplete OS. Vampire team cannot put out there a device that doesn't fully work.

I do wish AROS was worked on as well, but I don't believe this is the right kind of motivation. I wonder if money could make things better, because I sure as hell would contribute to a crowdfunding campaign to push AROS forward.

TuKo · 13 February 2016, 02:02

3.9

NorthWay · 13 February 2016, 04:42

3.1

But not having both 512K/1024K maprom functionality and a flash rom would be a missed opportunity.

And _licencing_ a KS to include would ruffle my feathers.

Amiga1992 · 13 February 2016, 06:13

Yeah if you have to license the rom and add to the cost of the unit, I'd give it a miss. I am sure somehow *ehem* we can make things work the way we want *ehemm* :P

Again there is this situation where fucking stale license owners/copyright holders put a development in a pickle. I wish they didn't exist. That is the main reason why I wouldn't want to pay license fees, we need to stop being the hand that feeds them.

gulliver · 13 February 2016, 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akira

Again there is this situation where fucking stale license owners/copyright holders put a development in a pickle. I wish they didn't exist. That is the main reason why I wouldn't want to pay license fees, we need to stop being the hand that feeds them.

Put Aros 68k, because it is free and the Vampire will be more affordable that way. If anyone has a need for either 3.1 or 3.9 they can easily purchase those themselves or unshelve a copy they have in their attic.

Besides as mentioned by Akira, you dont feed the greedy & stagnant copyright holders.

Furthermore, you give Aros68k just a little push which may be useful someday.

Jope · 13 February 2016, 08:24

Selectable banks with user flashable content. That way there will be a bootable backup rom if something goes wrong. Better yet, an immutable fallback boot rom that can only load the ks off an Amiga fornatted floppy's tracks kick/suoerkick disk style.

dirkies · 13 February 2016, 08:31

3.X of course.

TenLeftFingers · 13 February 2016, 10:38

Now? 3.x. But since FPGA could well be our 'NG reboot' it would be great to see AROS development pick up again.

Viserion · 13 February 2016, 13:11

3.x but as others have pointed out. Extra space for customized roms, and possible dual boot would be nice.

wawa · 13 February 2016, 15:42

im going to put up some video of aros on my 1200er later. its currently compiled with the whole debug symbols in it so binaries are huge but its working better and better day by day. i just fixed the calculator tool yesterday night. the current desktop i use is scalos. the graphics are aga. after that i will make a flick of an a4000 with rtg.

what concerns aros vs aos3, i would say aos3 as long as its significantly more compatible. but if we want an updated os, it seems we have no choice but aros, so this is where work should be put into. this isnt an option with the genuine system alas.

Zetr0 · 13 February 2016, 17:30

I have to admit, I have been quite quiet on this simple because I am truly stunned and marvelled at this little adaptor.

If someone hasn't noticed it yet - its a massive game changer and further blurs the lines even more to WHAT IS AN AMIGA!?

(and they thought discovering gravitational waves was a big thing!)

For those that have had a part in its creation, production and dissemination I am deeply humbled to know some of you and I salute you all - amazing job indeed!

Now, I am probably going to get some flack for this but I would suggest bundling up KS3.1 and not for the reason you might think

Kickstart 3.1 is an upgrade in its self, and this should also be a selling point of the product because the Vampire V2 with the Apollo core is the gift that keeps and keeps and keeps giving!

Now as a developer and long time tinkerer of said magic I would love to have the option to update to an AROS ROM down the line by simply updating the adaptor - but I will be honest, I have already got me some cross-platform compiling's going and looking forward to playing with one of these I have some IDEAS I need to share with NovaCoder involving a V2 and DOSBOX - that would keep me busy with KS3.1 for a while=)

Amiga1992 · 13 February 2016, 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by gulliver

If anyone has a need for either 3.1 or 3.9 they can easily purchase those themselves or unshelve a copy they have in their attic.

If my computer already has a ROM in it why would I buy an extra one?

I think the problem is that the Vampire needs to ship with a ROM. Perhaps if it needs to do so, it'd be best to ship with AROS, but allowing the user to swap it with their own 3.X after receiving the unit if they wished so. I understand the ROM has to be patched to work better with the Vampire, so I see something like this:

- Card ships with AROS
- Some software included that boots up simple AROS OS, dumps user's ROM to disk, patches it as necessary then flashes it to the Vampire.
- If there are any other patches one wants to include, maybe this software can include them too.

I just would hate not specifically that the price would go up on the Vampire, but that the losers at Cloanto or Hyperion get a cut from Vampire sales they don't deserve.
All our Amigas have perfectly valid, legal ROMs that we can use. So I see no reason for us to buy another copy just to use with the Vampire.

eXeler0 · 13 February 2016, 18:58

Out of the ~200 orders or so, how many actually use or intend to use AROS?

wawa · 13 February 2016, 19:07

what concerns aros rom, in any case one shouldnt use aros rom that comes with winuae, it is an ancient one. its completely outdated. aros doesnt need a hardware rom. it can be soft booted from an amiga kickstart. and this is the way it currently boots on a real amiga. so it shouldnt be a problem when the hardware comes with a genuine amiga rom, which currently is the best solution, if you ask me. my amigas boot to aros this way within a minute. so what i propose is amiga kickstart for now and aros kickstart as a future option.

wawa · 13 February 2016, 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Out of the ~200 orders or so, how many actually use or intend to use AROS?

its not about using aros or amiga os. its simply about using amiga software + eventually aros software in most compatible way. aros is in may ways still incompatible with a number of, sometimes important, amiga titles. however it may be or even is more compatible across amiga own kickstarts.

Zetr0 · 13 February 2016, 20:06

@Kipper2k

Alternatively - since you are aiming for a license for KS3.1 then perhaps getting a community build of KS3.9 or even redev it KS4.0

I think it would be a great additional value to the product with updated KS patches and firmware and it would be selling point of the product.

matthey · 13 February 2016, 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

Alternatively - since you are aiming for a license for KS3.1 then perhaps getting a community build of KS3.9 or even redev it KS4.0

I think it would be a great additional value to the product with updated KS patches and firmware and it would be selling point of the product.

Great idea in a sane Amiga world! Instead we have the Hyperion snob elitists with no interest in the 68k, A-EON who acts interested but seems rather incompetent, out of money or has no influence or control, Amiga Inc. which is a useless leach, Cloanto who would rather sit back and make the last of its money off of a historic product, H&P who is fed up with the Amiga and still hasn't been paid for AmigaOS 3.9 and all the 3rd party authors with software in AmigaOS 3.9. It would take a miracle for everything to come together to continue with AmigaOS 3.9 or get an AmigaOS 3.9/4.x hybrid to the 68k. The only people who want it are lowly Amiga users and they have no say, not with Hyperion, A-EON, Cloanto, Amiga Inc., H&P or the Apollo Team (Gunnar, Gunnar and Gunnar). I like your attitude Zetr0 but our Amiga dreams have turned into fantasies.

Some of the Amigas Majsta's accelerators will be going in do not have an HD, especially the Amiga 500/1000/2000/CDTV models. It would be very convenient if an SD card with a bootable AmigaOS/AROS was included (more than kickstart is needed). Without this, most people would have to rely on UAE in a PC with an SD card reader/writer or install AmigaOS from floppies (not reliable and not easy with AmigaOS 3.9). AROS installed with a blank flash/MAPROM slot and partition for AmigaOS (selectable) may be the only reasonable option. Having AROS as default would encourage AROS development and put pressure on the companies holding the AmigaOS hostage. All the FPGA projects should unite and choose the same standards to apply even more pressure. Now I'm the one spouting the fantasies again

.

Arnie · 14 February 2016, 00:03

With kippers 8mb card and the SCSI card from Mathias, there can't be many of the models you mentioned that don't have a HD.

Zetr0 · 14 February 2016, 00:44

Its good to read you matthey its been a while - I hope you are well

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthey

Great idea in a sane Amiga world! Instead we have the Hyperion snob elitists with no interest in the 68k, A-EON who acts interested but seems rather incompetent, out of money or has no influence or control, Amiga Inc. which is a useless leach, Cloanto who would rather sit back and make the last of its money off of a historic product, H&P who is fed up with the Amiga and still hasn't been paid for AmigaOS 3.9 and all the 3rd party authors with software in AmigaOS 3.9. It would take a miracle for everything to come together to continue with AmigaOS 3.9 or get an AmigaOS 3.9/4.x hybrid to the 68k. The only people who want it are lowly Amiga users and they have no say, not with Hyperion, A-EON, Cloanto, Amiga Inc., H&P or the Apollo Team (Gunnar, Gunnar and Gunnar). I like your attitude Zetr0 but our Amiga dreams have turned into fantasies.

To be a fair an official KS4 ROM is quite a dream / fantasy - but a community agreed 3.9 is easily with the grasp of this project and could well be the catalyst to set a standard at least within the community.

Arguably the Kickstart 3.1 license could be sold on containing a community agreed 3.9 updates and would be sellable as an independent product outside of the Vampire product - Thus allowing users to upgrade thier older KickROM even 3.1safe in the knowledge they are getting a legal working firmware with a psudeo official update thats documented and continually supported by the community.

however this delightful idea might be limited to the scope of the license agreement that are set by the licensor for embedded controllers. One can hope that someone gives it a go as a seperate product as well as an embedded one eh?

Quote:

Some of the Amigas Majsta's accelerators will be going in do not have an HD, especially the Amiga 500/1000/2000/CDTV models. It would be very convenient if an SD card with a bootable AmigaOS/AROS was included (more than kickstart is needed). Without this, most people would have to rely on UAE in a PC with an SD card reader/writer or install AmigaOS from floppies (not reliable and not easy with AmigaOS 3.9). AROS installed with a blank flash/MAPROM slot and partition for AmigaOS (selectable) may be the only reasonable option. Having AROS as default would encourage AROS development and put pressure on the companies holding the AmigaOS hostage. All the FPGA projects should unite and choose the same standards to apply even more pressure. Now I'm the one spouting the fantasies again

.

While a great idea for the end user it is a little unfair to expect hardware to come with an OS I do like the idea of flashable firmwares - and it is the delightful beauty of an FPGA solution that this featue could be implemented at a later stage

13 February 2016, 17:30	#32
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	I have to admit, I have been quite quiet on this simple because I am truly stunned and marvelled at this little adaptor. If someone hasn't noticed it yet - its a massive game changer and further blurs the lines even more to WHAT IS AN AMIGA!? (and they thought discovering gravitational waves was a big thing!) For those that have had a part in its creation, production and dissemination I am deeply humbled to know some of you and I salute you all - amazing job indeed! Now, I am probably going to get some flack for this but I would suggest bundling up KS3.1 and not for the reason you might think Kickstart 3.1 is an upgrade in its self, and this should also be a selling point of the product because the Vampire V2 with the Apollo core is the gift that keeps and keeps and keeps giving! Now as a developer and long time tinkerer of said magic I would love to have the option to update to an AROS ROM down the line by simply updating the adaptor - but I will be honest, I have already got me some cross-platform compiling's going and looking forward to playing with one of these I have some IDEAS I need to share with NovaCoder involving a V2 and DOSBOX - that would keep me busy with KS3.1 for a while=)

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13 February 2016, 01:06	#21
IanP Registered User Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Bristol/UK Posts: 166	AROS 68k is in a catch22 situation. It's got some issues so almost nobody uses it and little effort is put into improving AROS 68k as almost nobody uses it. Instead developers spend time patching Amiga OS 3.x. The Vampire features combined with AROS 68k can be the catalyst to get AROS improved beyond anything Amiga OS 3.x will ever achieve.

13 February 2016, 01:21	#22
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,645	Putting AROS into a device like the Vampire would just hinder its usability and would be detrimental for the Vampire. You can't just ask the team to "jump together in the river", I rather leave AROS behind in limbo than kill Vampire by sporting an incomplete OS. Vampire team cannot put out there a device that doesn't fully work. I do wish AROS was worked on as well, but I don't believe this is the right kind of motivation. I wonder if money could make things better, because I sure as hell would contribute to a crowdfunding campaign to push AROS forward.

13 February 2016, 02:02	#23
TuKo Apollo Team Join Date: May 2014 Location: not far Posts: 379	3.9

13 February 2016, 04:42	#24
NorthWay Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Grimstad / Norway Posts: 839	3.1 But not having both 512K/1024K maprom functionality and a flash rom would be a missed opportunity. And _licencing_ a KS to include would ruffle my feathers.

13 February 2016, 06:13	#25
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,645	Yeah if you have to license the rom and add to the cost of the unit, I'd give it a miss. I am sure somehow ehem we can make things work the way we want ehemm :P Again there is this situation where fucking stale license owners/copyright holders put a development in a pickle. I wish they didn't exist. That is the main reason why I wouldn't want to pay license fees, we need to stop being the hand that feeds them.

13 February 2016, 08:24	#27
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,861	Selectable banks with user flashable content. That way there will be a bootable backup rom if something goes wrong. Better yet, an immutable fallback boot rom that can only load the ks off an Amiga fornatted floppy's tracks kick/suoerkick disk style.

13 February 2016, 08:31	#28
dirkies Zone Friend Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Belgium Age: 51 Posts: 1,296	3.X of course.

13 February 2016, 10:38	#29
TenLeftFingers Registered User Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 800	Now? 3.x. But since FPGA could well be our 'NG reboot' it would be great to see AROS development pick up again.

13 February 2016, 13:11	#30
Viserion Registered User Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Oslo/Norway Posts: 265	3.x but as others have pointed out. Extra space for customized roms, and possible dual boot would be nice.

13 February 2016, 15:42	#31
wawa Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: berlin/germany Posts: 1,054	im going to put up some video of aros on my 1200er later. its currently compiled with the whole debug symbols in it so binaries are huge but its working better and better day by day. i just fixed the calculator tool yesterday night. the current desktop i use is scalos. the graphics are aga. after that i will make a flick of an a4000 with rtg. what concerns aros vs aos3, i would say aos3 as long as its significantly more compatible. but if we want an updated os, it seems we have no choice but aros, so this is where work should be put into. this isnt an option with the genuine system alas.

13 February 2016, 18:58	#34
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 2,946	Out of the ~200 orders or so, how many actually use or intend to use AROS?

13 February 2016, 19:07	#35
wawa Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: berlin/germany Posts: 1,054	what concerns aros rom, in any case one shouldnt use aros rom that comes with winuae, it is an ancient one. its completely outdated. aros doesnt need a hardware rom. it can be soft booted from an amiga kickstart. and this is the way it currently boots on a real amiga. so it shouldnt be a problem when the hardware comes with a genuine amiga rom, which currently is the best solution, if you ask me. my amigas boot to aros this way within a minute. so what i propose is amiga kickstart for now and aros kickstart as a future option.

13 February 2016, 20:06	#37
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@Kipper2k Alternatively - since you are aiming for a license for KS3.1 then perhaps getting a community build of KS3.9 or even redev it KS4.0 I think it would be a great additional value to the product with updated KS patches and firmware and it would be selling point of the product.

14 February 2016, 00:03	#39
Arnie R.I.P Smudge 18-08-16 Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Leicester/UK Age: 66 Posts: 3,968	With kippers 8mb card and the SCSI card from Mathias, there can't be many of the models you mentioned that don't have a HD.

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