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Old 31 March 2019, 18:46   #81
nlandas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technomancer View Post
With all this legal madness over Amiga IP........ in open source solutions (like Aros 68k) and let those IP trolls to finally die ...

Can you imagine what open sourcing AmigaOS back when Commodore went under would have done for the community? Many still would have paid for the supported version and buying ROMs anyway. I can't imagine if we had retained developers in a Open Source project where the OS could be now.

It's not too late is it, the current holders could open source the OS and then sell pre-compiled supported versions with ROMs. Oh, well.
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Old 31 March 2019, 19:29   #82
kolla
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AmigaOS 3.1.4 successor wishlist

Quote:
Originally Posted by nlandas View Post
It's not too late is it, the current holders could open source the OS and then sell pre-compiled supported versions with ROMs. Oh, well.

Cloanto, the IP owner of all Amiga OS up to and including 3.1, has indicated that something like this is their intention. However, the people with the sources, Hyperion and the OS 3.1.4 developers, say they will not have it, and oppose all attempts at officially open sourcing OS 3.1.
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Old 31 March 2019, 23:23   #83
gulliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Cloanto, the IP owner of all Amiga OS up to and including 3.1, has indicated that something like this is their intention. However, the people with the sources, Hyperion and the OS 3.1.4 developers, say they will not have it, and oppose all attempts at officially open sourcing OS 3.1.
I have personally never said Cloanto will or will not have sources. So you are lying. And I have never seen Olaf or Thomas post one way or the other about that too. No developer is attempting to boycott anyone. We just develop, nothing more.

And then you are assuming Cloanto hasn't got 3.1 sources. Do you know that to be a fact? Or is it lying or guessing all over again.

Stop lying and manipulating words to try to fit your agenda!
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Old 01 April 2019, 06:25   #84
kolla
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AmigaOS 3.1.4 successor wishlist

@Gulliver
Unless you provide proof that the OS 3.1.4 developers (and you, according to yourself, are _not_ a developer) and Hyperion now support open sourcing of OS 3.1, I am not lying. Unless you, on behalf of Hyperion, a company for which you are not a spokes person, can state that Cloanto officially has full access to the OS repos that Olsen maintains on behalf of Hyperion, I am not lying. In short, if you really want to call me a lyar, then prove me wrong.

And what is my agenda again?

Last edited by kolla; 01 April 2019 at 06:31.
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Old 01 April 2019, 07:44   #85
gulliver
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
@Gulliver
Unless you provide proof that the OS 3.1.4 developers (and you, according to yourself, are _not_ a developer) and Hyperion now support open sourcing of OS 3.1, I am not lying. Unless you, on behalf of Hyperion, a company for which you are not a spokes person, can state that Cloanto officially has full access to the OS repos that Olsen maintains on behalf of Hyperion, I am not lying. In short, if you really want to call me a lyar, then prove me wrong.

And what is my agenda again?
What a load of crap and nonsense.

What those two companies do to each other is their own business. I am just another spectator.

You speak on behalf of myself and others and missrepresent us with ill intentions.

You are just a liar.
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Old 01 April 2019, 07:59   #86
kolla
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AmigaOS 3.1.4 successor wishlist

@Gulliver
I have stared many times that I only speak for myself, and I certainly do not speak for you (what on earth gives you the idea that I attempt to speak for you???) And again, I am not lying, so when you call me a lyar (which is a so called "personal attack") you better back it up.

So, according to you, these are lies:

* Thomas has repeatedly stated that he oppose the idea of open source Amiga OS, not only because of the legal situation, but also for technical reasons.

* Hyperion have repeatedly claimed that the OS sources are *theirs* and nobody elses property. They claim *exclusive* rights to the AmigaOS sources.
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Old 01 April 2019, 09:30   #87
fgh
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Hey, I have a feature suggestion.

Remove the KS3.1 disabling of pcmcia port when >4MB Z2 ram is detected, and replace it if possible with a mechanism that only disables pcmcia sram (or just trigger a warning when sram is inserted with conflicting ram present)
The other pcmcia devices use pcmcia i/o address space which does not conflict with z2 ram.
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Old 01 April 2019, 09:58   #88
gulliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Cloanto, the IP owner of all Amiga OS up to and including 3.1, has indicated that something like this is their intention. However, the people with the sources, Hyperion and the OS 3.1.4 developers, say they will not have it, and oppose all attempts at officially open sourcing OS 3.1.
We are spectators, and commentators, like every other Amiga user out there.
And Thomas voiced his opinion. He did not do anything for or against, he just develops and comments as a more educated spectator, nothing else. And each of us may have the same, or an opposing, or another totally different opinion/view about the matter, but we only do what we can do: develop/test. There is no boycott to anyone from us.

We don't decide if AmigaOS can be open source and of course, can't do anything to prevent what whoever wins the case decides to do with it. They are the owners, not us.

Regarding your own post above:

I am an AmigaOS developer and "people with the sources". So you spoke missrepresenting me.

So to cut it short, you are lying.
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Old 01 April 2019, 10:07   #89
gulliver
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Originally Posted by fgh View Post
Hey, I have a feature suggestion.

Remove the KS3.1 disabling of pcmcia port when >4MB Z2 ram is detected, and replace it if possible with a mechanism that only disables pcmcia sram (or just trigger a warning when sram is inserted with conflicting ram present)
The other pcmcia devices use pcmcia i/o address space which does not conflict with z2 ram.
I believe Thomas already did some work regarding cardres in order to resolve conflicting memory addressing space. I don't remember what exactly he did though, it was quite some time ago.
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Old 01 April 2019, 10:28   #90
kolla
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Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
We are spectators, and commentators, like every other Amiga user out there.
When you write "we" and "us" - who are you representing? Thomas and Olsen? The "OS 3.1.4" team? Anyone who ever signed NDA with Hyperion? Who?

Quote:
And Thomas voiced his opinion. He did not do anything for or against, he just develops and comments as a more educated spectator, nothing else.
He tends to voice his opinions rather strongly, and he is undeniably the one the most influential OS 3.1.4 developer around, he does not hide at all that he is _VERY_ much against Amiga OS officially being an open sourced project. Do you deny that this is the case? Do you also deny that Hyperion is _VERY_ much against Amiga OS being an open sourced project?

Quote:
And each of us may have the same, or an opposing, or another totally different opinion/view about the matter, but we only do what we can do: develop/test. There is no boycott to anyone from us.
No-one said anything about any boycott, I have no idea why you bring up this term, nor what you want to imply with using this term.

Quote:
We don't decide if AmigaOS can be open source and of course, can't do anything to prevent what whoever wins the case decides to do with it. They are the owners, not us.
Exactly, and what is Hyperion's stance on open source Amiga OS? Are there at all _ANY_ OS 3.1.4 developer who is voicing _FOR_ open sourcing Amiga OS? You??

Quote:
I am an AmigaOS developer
Oh really, since when? Since back in the days when you were gathering components for BB3 and BB4? Or since you signed NDA with Hyperion and got access to the source repo? Or since just now, as it fits your argument? Can you share what component of OS 3.1.4 that you are developing on, or are improving? Or do you consider it "developing" to tweak Startup-Sequence and draw icons? I ask, since you have repeatedly stated earlier that you are "just a tester".

Quote:
and "people with the sources". So you spoke missrepresenting me.
Sorry, no, I do not consider you "people with the sources", that goes to those who claim legal ownership of the code used in OS 3.1.4 - as far as I know, you do not have any legal claims to code used in/for development of OS 3.1.4.

But since you consider yourself a developer now... is it so, that you truly support the idea of open source Amiga OS?

Quote:
So to cut it short, you are lying.
Repeating things doesn't make it more true.
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Old 01 April 2019, 10:30   #91
kolla
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Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
II don't remember what exactly he did though, it was quite some time ago.
As an OS developer, you should have no problems accessing the commit log and find out exactly what he did. Every time you answer questions like this with "I don't remember exactly" and "I don't know exactly", it either shows that you are not a developer, or that you are... for lack of a better word... lazy.
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Old 01 April 2019, 11:16   #92
gulliver
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You are just lying and manipulating things to fit your arguments.

It is useless to discuss with you. You feel you are allways right, no matter if the truth hits you in the head.

I am really sorry for you.
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Old 01 April 2019, 11:28   #93
kolla
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Why don't you stick to the topic here, which is Amiga OS 3.1.4 and its successor, and not me?
If you are indeed an OS developer, and also support the idea of open source Amiga OS, then I suggest you raise that flag high and clear for Hyperion.

And, just to be clear - I really, really *WISH* I am wrong, but I see no indication of being wrong.
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Old 01 April 2019, 11:52   #94
ExiE
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I guess Thomas' attitude to open sourcing AmigaOS3.1 is based on a completely different foundation than Hyperion's.
Open sourcing OS is not always best way to go, especially in Amiga world...
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Old 01 April 2019, 12:16   #95
gulliver
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Originally Posted by ExiE View Post
I guess Thomas' attitude to open sourcing AmigaOS3.1 is based on a completely different foundation than Hyperion's.
Open sourcing OS is not always best way to go, especially in Amiga world...
Yes, his argument is of a technical nature.
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Old 01 April 2019, 13:07   #96
Thomas Richter
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Originally Posted by fgh View Post
Hey, I have a feature suggestion.

Remove the KS3.1 disabling of pcmcia port when >4MB Z2 ram is detected, and replace it if possible with a mechanism that only disables pcmcia sram (or just trigger a warning when sram is inserted with conflicting ram present)
The other pcmcia devices use pcmcia i/o address space which does not conflict with z2 ram.
The mechanism with 3.1.4. should already prevent that. From the release notes: - The resource now no longer refuses to build if there is conflicting memory in the system, instead AddSysMem confuses now the addition of memory that is already present. - The resource makes a best attempt to detect conflicting cards on startup, but cannot prevent users inserting a memory card at any time later.... What 3.1.4 does not do is to disable the writeprotect-interrupt, which is responsible for the immense slow-down if a PCMCIA card is present, and some RAM in unusual places. This should have been fixed in the meantime, and is scheduled tentatively for the next major release, i.e. "CardPatch" becomes obsolete by that. I do not have any cards that are affected by "CardReset", and all I can say is that "CardReset" does not exactly initiate a reset in first place, so I do not know what is going on there. I modified the reset logic of the cardres.resource a bit and I am awaiting feedback from our testers whether this works.

Last edited by Thomas Richter; 01 April 2019 at 13:13.
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Old 01 April 2019, 15:28   #97
Korodny
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Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
We are spectators, and commentators, like every other Amiga user out there.
Assuming "we" refers to the 3.1.4 team: That team is providing quite a lot of revenue for Hyperion, via 3.1.4 sales - that's the exact opposite of being mere "spectators and commentators".

Quote:
We don't decide if AmigaOS can be open source and of course, can't do anything to prevent what whoever wins the case decides to do with it.
You're providing income to the party that is guaranteed not to open source it, thus weakening the opposing party who at least claims it wants to open source it.

You can either...
  • cooperate with one of two warring parties
  • create a product for them that will generate them the most income they had in ages
  • publicly acknowledge their entire legal position by letting them distribute 3.1.4
  • strengthen their public position by having respected developers (Olsen, Thor) speak out on their behalf
or claim you're just independent spectators that do not influence the situation at all. Both at the same time is simply not possible.

And please refrain from using "we": Thor has been publically attacking Cloanto for 2.5 years. He's anything but a passive spectator.

Last edited by Korodny; 01 April 2019 at 18:43.
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Old 01 April 2019, 15:59   #98
number6
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Originally Posted by Korodny View Post
Assuming "we" refers to the 3.1.4 team: That team is providing quite a lot of revenue for Hyperion, via 3.1.4 sales - that's the exact opposite of being mere "spectators and commentators".


You're providing income to the party that is guaranteed not to open source it, thus weakening the opposing party who at least claims it wants to open source it.

You can either...
  • cooperate with one of two warring parties
  • create a product for them that will generate them the most income they had in ages
  • publically acknowledge their entire legal position by letting them distribute 3.1.4
  • strengthen their public position by having respected developers (Olsen, Thor) speak out on their behalf
or claim you're just independent spectators that do not influence the situation at all. Both at the same time is simply not possible.

And please refrain from using "we": Thor has been publically attacking Cloanto for 2.5 years. He's anything but a passive spectator.
Actually, since sources indicate Ben Hermans is billing Hyperion for legal services, it is most definitely taking a side quite strongly. In that case you therefore could argue that indirect cooperation with one of the warring parties has already taken place.
However, as Thomas has indicated in the past, this is about a "strategic partnership" in order to further the work.

I prefer not to condemn either mode of thinking here.

#6
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Old 01 April 2019, 22:01   #99
amiwolf
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Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
The mechanism with 3.1.4. should already prevent that. From the release notes: - The resource now no longer refuses to build if there is conflicting memory in the system, instead AddSysMem confuses now the addition of memory that is already present. - The resource makes a best attempt to detect conflicting cards on startup, but cannot prevent users inserting a memory card at any time later.... What 3.1.4 does not do is to disable the writeprotect-interrupt, which is responsible for the immense slow-down if a PCMCIA card is present, and some RAM in unusual places. This should have been fixed in the meantime, and is scheduled tentatively for the next major release, i.e. "CardPatch" becomes obsolete by that. I do not have any cards that are affected by "CardReset", and all I can say is that "CardReset" does not exactly initiate a reset in first place, so I do not know what is going on there. I modified the reset logic of the cardres.resource a bit and I am awaiting feedback from our testers whether this works.
Would it also be possible to update carddisk.device to natively support compactflash cards please? Being able to boot from a FFS formatted CF would be another welcome feature, at least for me. Thank you.
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Old 01 April 2019, 22:52   #100
Thomas Richter
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Originally Posted by amiwolf View Post
Would it also be possible to update carddisk.device to natively support compactflash cards please? Being able to boot from a FFS formatted CF would be another welcome feature, at least for me. Thank you.
Not realistically so. A compactflash card is a PCMCIA card with an IDE interface. That is beyond scope of the carddisk.device, which expects direct memory access. IOWs, this would duplicate major parts of the scsi.device.

This said, there is a suitable device in Aminet (albeit a bit buggy) that works well in practise, so there is not really a need in first place.
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