AGA integration in Apollo core : work in progress

[grond]

Originally Posted by chaos

I'm not too familiar with the POWER8 arch, but your quote clearly states "GPR-to/from-VSR move operations", which would imply separate GPR & VSR regfiles. So, it looks like it does have separate 'integer-only' regular general purpose registers and separate 128x64 VSR registers. Which in my opinion, makes perfect sense, as using just a single 128x64 regfile for all ops would push power usage much higher.

Yes, of course! Addressing memory with 128 bit registers wouldn't make much sense, would it? The VSU combines the legacy FP and Altivec units into a new super-unit that also does integer stuff. In addition to this there is still the normal General Purpose Unit, otherwise the normal POWER code obviously wouldn't run. Again there is no real difference here to what Apollo does. There are still 32bit address registers in Apollo and the legacy integer unit operates on one 32bit-half of the registers.

Now, that doesn't mean that ops on VSR can't be integer, because, why wouldn't they be - even GPUs can do integer math.

This is exclusively about pointing out that Matt critisizes the Apollo ISA for something that obviously is no problem in the real world today.

The issue with separate regfiles is not (just) of frequency, but mostly power. Look at the latest Intel's AVX512 - power usage is quite a lot higher then previous versions. It just doesn't make sense to use such large regfiles for all operations.

You are talking about a 512bit unit, we are discussing how a 64bit unit supposedly is a problem for both power consumption and clock speed...

BTW, the power isn't consumed by the register file but by the super-wide and manyfold parallel ALU. We don't have anything wider than 64bits in Apollo. About what decade of processor development are we discussing here? Are we discussing about what's a good design decision today or about what seemed to be a good decision in 1995?

[demolition]

Originally Posted by sean_skroht

I have heard that GOLD3 is supposed to bring massive compatibility improvements as well as an improved turtle mode. If that is the case then this is something I'm really looking forward to. But if it's rumoured to completely bypass the ECS chipset with no choice from the user then this is very concerning. It leaves us CRT users stuck on GOLD2 with no hope of any further improvements. And I seriously dont want to have to buy ANOTHER adapter to convert an HDMI signal back to SCART. Sheesh!!

SAGA and PAMELA works in parallel with the original ECS and PAULA so they should still run normally, at least that is how I understand it. In the videos they show HDMI video being identical to RGB video on separate screens so clearly they are working in parallel. Of course if you are running software which makes use of special SAGA features, then that will break the RGB output.

In any case, I don't see why one should make a big fuzz about stuff that hasn't even been released yet as things can change. If Gold3, by your usage pattern, breaks more stuff that it fixes, then you can always revert back to Gold 2 and just be happy with that. Many other projects like these rarely see any firmware updates despite promises, so what we have received so far is a big positive surprise to me. The Vampire board is a very different beast today than what it was when I first got it.

[grond]

Originally Posted by demolition

SAGA and PAMELA works in parallel with the original ECS and PAULA so they should still run normally, at least that is how I understand it. In the videos they show HDMI video being identical to RGB video on separate screens so clearly they are working in parallel.

This video was done during the early development stages and writes to chipmem were mirrored to Vampire fastmem. This meant that there was still output coming from the RGB but also that the overall processing speed was tied down to the original chipmem bus. Even though this slow speed might in theory have been acceptible to some, it just cannot work for a full-featured secondary implementation because the SAGA blitter also would have had to write a copy through the Amiga bus in order to update the RGB output. However, only the part of the Amiga bus bandwidth visible to the CPU could be used for this mirroring and this part is less than the combined bandwidths of blitter, CPU and DMA as seen from the chipmem. This means that the chipset implementation would have been significantly slower than the original making games and stuff unplayable (especially for higher colourdepths).

[E-Penguin]

woohoo finally back on topic!

The idea of being able to switch between real* chipset and SAGA sounds tempting but I wonder how much people would really use it, once SAGA reaches a certain level of stability and compatibility. The stated goal is 100% compatibility, at which point; why bother going back to the chipset? It makes the rest of the Amiga a glorified PSU and keyboard, but I suppose that's alright...

*the one on the main board. This isn't a discussion on whether FPGA is an emulation or an implementation

[Predseda]

This reminds me my Blizzard 1230, that can be switched off during the boot by holding a key, but damn - I have never done it. There is just no reason and so my precious MC68ec020 is now useless, but who cares.

[sean_sk]

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

woohoo finally back on topic!

The idea of being able to switch between real* chipset and SAGA sounds tempting but I wonder how much people would really use it, once SAGA reaches a certain level of stability and compatibility.

Me for one. I have the A600 hooked up to a real nice german 100hz CRT TV that delivers a beautiful super crisp picture with well defined scanlines. I, at least, want one of my Amiga's connected to a CRT screen to remember the way it was. The A1200 can be used for the more progressive, forward looking stuff.

If people dont want to be tied down to backwards compatibility because they feel that it stunts future Amiga development then yeah, fair enough. But isn't that what the standalone Vampire board will be good for? I can see Vampire catering to the needs of a broad section of Amiga fandom and perhaps even those that never used to be fans.

[E-Penguin]

There's always one...

I understand the point though.

To play devil's advocate a little; if you want to remember it the way it was, don't add a Vampire. The team are creating a "new Amiga", effectively, going where Commodore might have done had they not gone bankrupt. For an unadulterated early 90s gaming experience, get an A500 + 512k and leave it as that.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

The stated goal is 100% compatibility, at which point; why bother going back to the chipset?

And at that point, why use an Amiga wedge at all, when you can just use the Vampire on its own?

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

To play devil's advocate a little; if you want to remember it the way it was, don't add a Vampire.

I think this is excellent advice that I have given before to people.

Threads where people try to get back to Amiga now currently and quickly devolve into "get a Vampire!" pitches, without realizing the Vampire is just not for everyone right now and, in most cases, people do NOT need one and will be disappointed when they receive it because it doesn't do the wonders they have been told it would by misled forumites giving ill advice.

This kinda advice also hurts the Vampire by enlarging the "disgruntled population". It'd be best kept in check instead of giving it care free.,

Originally Posted by sean_skroht

Me for one. I have the A600 hooked up to a real nice german 100hz CRT TV that delivers a beautiful super crisp picture with well defined scanlines. I, at least, want one of my Amiga's connected to a CRT screen to remember the way it was.

You can use an HDMI downscaler as suggested earlier in this thread, there's also scanline generator hardware. Not the same, but hey.

[UberFreak]

I'm also using CRT for all my retro computers & consoles.
I have yet to see an LCD screen that can match a high-end CRT when gaming on systems that were designed for PAL/NTSC.

I second the motion to allow users to choose which "chipset" to use.

[E-Penguin]

It's horses for courses; classic hardware with a modern-for-classic accelerator (something from iComp, or TerribleFire, or similar) is probably more suitable for someone who wants to do old stuff more quickly.

The Vampire, for me, is a new machine which takes the Amiga to a new place. It's an exciting journey but it's not for everyone. FPU or no.

[Megol]

Originally Posted by grond

The problem is that Matt is writing nonsense (but in an impressive manner) and that nobody can understand the nonsense (like you admit for yourself) as well as the corrections. Any "discussion on a technical level" you hope for is just a waste of time and will result in more nonsense posted. Matt just won't stop.

I understand him well and generally agree with his vision. That doesn't mean I agree with everything he writes.

If you think his points are nonsense it tells me a lot of yourself.

[Overflow]

@Akira

While I realise the disgruntled effect is real, Ive never understood it.
Dan Wood/Kookytech got such a more sunny disposition;
Appriciate the effort of others while also point out pros and cons, including what would be good to see changed/developed in the future.
A glas half full attitude instead of half empty.

I will keep one of my amigas classic/non vampire; and keep both expiriences within hands reach.
Or possibly get Jens's Reloaded.

Many options; and I think positivity is more productive in the long tun.

[Gorf]

Gunnar just enabled Hyperthreading in the Apollo-Core!

APOLLO 68080 is now HYPER-THREADING enabled
This is a major technological improvement for the 68K community.
Software taking benefit from this is developed at the time being.

I wonder how this will be supported by Exec and scheduling ... via a special thread.library? Or like AROS-SMP?

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by Overflow

@Akira

While I realise the disgruntled effect is real, Ive never understood it.

It's easy to understand.

Say you come here and say "hey guys had an Amiga and have fond memories, want to go back to it, I want to play all those games, but I want to spice up the system a but more to be used today, like transferring stuff to my Amiga from my modern computer, what do you suggest?"

Two replies down someone says "YOU MUST get a Vampire it's the Amiga FUTURE!", and you go and get it. Terrible mistake.

You'll be VERY disappointed when you find it has compatibility issues and that you have a hard time running stuff "like you remember".

As I said, Vampire isn't for just everyone, and people suggesting others to get one should be wary to do so. You only damage the platform by suggesting people who are not really suited to have one (yet) to get one.

Teh truth is most Amiga 68k users of today, just want to reminisce and play old stuff with them, for which they need not much expansion, especially when in most cases, Amiga expansions cause incompatibilities you have to work around.

[TrashyMG]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Amiga community does not want a POWER8. It wants a 68k.

It's still 68k, just with new features.

Originally Posted by Akira

Teh truth is most Amiga 68k users of today, just want to reminisce and play old stuff with them, for which they need not much expansion, especially when in most cases, Amiga expansions cause incompatibilities you have to work around.

Okay, so far I haven't seen much incompatibilities outside of FPU garbage that I wouldn't be using anyway since all I have is an A600. But now I get to look forward to AGA games and things I couldn't use before. And enjoy things like a WB that is a decent speed with more than 4 colors.

[E-Penguin]

Originally Posted by trashymg

more than 4 colors

blasphemy!

[Sinphaltimus]

Originally Posted by TrashyMG

It's still 68k, just with new features.


Okay, so far I haven't seen much incompatibilities outside of FPU garbage that I wouldn't be using anyway since all I have is an A600. But now I get to look forward to AGA games and things I couldn't use before. And enjoy things like a WB that is a decent speed with more than 4 colors.

This exactly. And I have an A500 auth only 1MB I'd ram that I want to do more than just game on. I'm also petrified that something old attached to the system will die sooner if not any day now, so even the thought if a stand alone vampire has me super excited.

[Overflow]

@Arika

Still doesnt make sense.

Most of us are 30-40++ and I would think we had aquired the ability to read several posts, threads and forums/sites and learn pro/cons before we purchase anything. Like research.

[E-Penguin]

I dunno, I'm 35 and I still try to push doors that clearly say "pull". Reading things is easier said than done.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by Overflow

@Arika
Still doesnt make sense.
Most of us are 30-40++ and I would think we had aquired the ability to read several posts, threads and forums/sites and learn pro/cons before we purchase anything. Like research.

Sorry, but thinking that one's personal experience applies to everyone is not really correct. You and 100s other people might be able to research and learn before a purchase, but others may not or just not want to do it because it's easier to just ask and be told what to do. Sure, joke's on them, but we also can provide SAFE advice. Personally when I come here and ask questions, I don't want to be fed a line of shit.

If you come to an Amiga forum asking for help, you expect people will give you "expert" advice, or at least trustworthy/tried and tested advice, and trust it at face value. I think this is pretty common of most people.