What Makes The Amiga CD32 The Best Amiga?

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

In my universe Wolfenstein 3D was a curiosity - a quaint little shareware game with cheesy graphics, a somewhat suspect premise and no depth.

Meanwhile, on planet Earth: "Wolfenstein 3D was a critical and commercial success and widely considered to be one of the greatest videogames ever made. Garnering numerous awards and selling over 200,000 copies by the end of 1993. It has been termed the "grandfather of 3D shooters", and is widely regarded as having helped popularize the first-person shooter genre and establishing the standard of fast-paced action and technical prowess for many subsequent games in the genre, as well as showcasing the viability of the shareware publishing model at the time."

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Leisure Suit Larry was a 'ground breaking' game? Considering that the original release used the same game engine as King's quest (released in 1984 for the IBM PCjr, and for DOS and Amiga in 1986) I would hardly call it that.

The fact something uses old engine does not mean it can't be groundbreaking, in this case being one of the first major games with more adult-oriented content and not utilising the usual fantasy or sci-fi tropes.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

The fact that you are describing these games as being unique to the PC suggests you were stuck in that world at the time, not knowing there was another one out there called Amiga. This is what I experienced from some insulated PC users who had no idea what the Amiga was about.

There are two little problems with that "analysis".

1) I'm not describing these games as unique to PC. What I said, which you are completey misrepresenting here, was in reply to your claim that "Adventures and RPG/Strategy games were preferred partly because they didn't tax the graphics hardware as much" Scroll up, apply some reading comprehension and it'll become quite clear.

2) I had an A500 from 1989 to ~1996. It was awesome for the first two, three years, bit painful later. I had access to capable PCs at my friends' and gf's houses, and learned to appreciate these machines. So...perhaps not so insulated after all.
On the other hand, judging by your anti-PC/console sentiments, seems to me that the tribal tunnel-vision ball is in your court actually.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

But consoles are meh.

If you say so. They're doing quite well these days though, and always have been.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Adding a mouse, keyboard and disk drive unlocked the CD32's true potential, and if you were lucky enough to have a CD writer to make your own CDs then it was (IMO) one of the best Amigas.

Pumping a lot of money into hardware which then would be still basically A1200 does not seem very wise, nevermind the fact that people who buy consoles don't do that to then jump through many hoops, so they can turn them into computers. Much better idea would be to buy an A1200. Or a PC.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

When we look at high-end PCs of the time, they too would soon be thrown on the scrapheap. Even today a PC more than 3 years old is generally considered too under-powered to run the latest software well, and gamers spend ridiculous amounts of money just to get fast enough graphics etc. (yet strangely the games aren't any more fun to play...).

Strange myth, persistent in the Amiga world. It does not work like this at all though.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

I disagree. Had Commodore not gone bankrupt when it did, the CD32 could have become quite popular in that short time before PSX came out, and even made good sales afterwards.

I don't see any reason for it to succeed where so many others (3DO, CD-i, Mega CD, etc) have failed. It's rather obvious that the "CD!" gimmick was not enough. You needed the 3D.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

If Commodore had been in better health they probably would have released an upgraded CD32 with FastRAM, built in floppy interface etc., or even a 3D graphics chip. With the advantage of being able to run existing Amiga games (many of which the console market had not yet experienced) and easy ports to CD format, it would not have suffered the initial problem the PSX did of limited software. Imagine being able to play the entire library of classic Amiga games and 3D games like Tomb raider! (which probably would have been produced for it first since Core design were Amiga developers).

This is a fantasy scenario, okay, but even so it's questionable. Sega was in pretty good health when they released Saturn, yet got their butts kicked. And most of decent Amiga 2D action games were already on other consoles.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

(all other PSX games sucked).

MGS, FF7, Gran Tourismo...all trash. Sigh. It's really hard to argue with somebody who pronounces such extreme opinions with an air of absolute righteousness, so I'll bow out here.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Meanwhile, on planet Earth: "Wolfenstein 3D was a critical and commercial success and widely considered to be one of the greatest videogames ever made. Garnering numerous awards and selling over 200,000 copies by the end of 1993. It has been termed the "grandfather of 3D shooters", and is widely regarded as having helped popularize the first-person shooter genre and establishing the standard of fast-paced action and technical prowess for many subsequent games in the genre, as well as showcasing the viability of the shareware publishing model at the time."

Oh, F off. When I saw Wolfenstein back in the day (1992, the height of my Amiga love) I saw it as a mild curiosity and inferior to stuff I'd seen in the PC shops like Wing Commander. I never liked the whole Wolfenstein angle in the first place, the game looked like stuff I'd seen on Amiga already, even if the Amiga was even more primitive (like Corporation) and it was severely lacking.

What I think you're talking about, Dreadnought, is DOOM, and to be honest, what you described much more aptly fits THAT milestone. My GOD, when I first saw DOOM on a friend's PC, I WAS FUCKING FLOORED. I decided, then and there, that I had to have the game as soon as I could, and the death of Commodore convinced me to go ahead and get a PC as soon as I could.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Meanwhile, on planet Earth: "Wolfenstein 3D was a critical and commercial success and widely considered to be one of the greatest videogames ever made.

I am sure many was very impressed with Wolf3D back in the day, but not everyone.
In my "environment", and people I knew, even Doom wasn't praised as I see people talk here. It was Ok, nice game, but nothing much more then that.
I never saw any Doom fan, back in the day, nor Amiga, nor PC users.
For example, much better impact had Earthworm Jim, released about in same time. People praised it as best platform, and craziest one.

Personally, not only Doom or Quake, or Descent.. I wasn't impressed at all with any 3D games up until 2003-2004.
If it had to be 3D, I always liked flat shaded look (like Frontier), then these ugly low res textures.

Yeah, Doom is awesome game, but visually, imho, it's a mess.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

I am sure many was very impressed with Wolf3D back in the day, but not everyone.
In my "environment", and people I knew, even Doom wasn't praised as I see people talk here. It was Ok, nice game, but nothing much more then that.
I never saw any Doom fan, back in the day, nor Amiga, nor PC users.
For example, much better impact had Earthworm Jim, released about in same time. People praised it as best platform, and craziest one.

Personally, not only Doom or Quake, or Descent.. I wasn't impressed at all with any 3D games up until 2003-2004.
If it had to be 3D, I always liked flat shaded look (like Frontier), then these ugly low res textures.

Yeah, Doom is awesome game, but visually, imho, it's a mess.

You think Earthworm Jim, a shitty 2D platformer, is better than the likes of Doom, Quake and Descent....? Yeaaaahhhh, riiigght...

I'll tell you one thing about Amiga games, I HATE most of the Amiga games ever made. Why? Because they're 2D platformers, and to be frank, 2D platformers should've died with the 8-bit systems. I mean, they're all variations on the same theme, and to be honest, I couldn't stand how most of them had cute characters and mascots, bringing the Amiga down to the level of a CHILD'S TOY.

It's probably just my love of FPS games, but when I saw Doom, it was a watershed moment, because I could finally explore worlds like in real life. I got a PC at the right moment in early 1995, cos then I could indulge my love of persistent worlds on a computer through the Golden Age of PC FPS games.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Foebane

You think Earthworm Jim, a shitty 2D platformer, is better than the likes of Doom, Quake and Descent....? Yeaaaahhhh, riiigght...

Read carefully what I wrote.
It was people I knew that liked Earthworm Jim more then Doom... it was played more...
For me personally, it's pretty much the same.
I like both genders (fps and platformers), but they are not my favorite.

Also, I wrote imho, witch means: "In my humble opinion", so I don't force anyone to like what I like.

Originally Posted by Foebane

when I saw Doom, it was a watershed moment, because I could finally explore worlds like in real life.

Good for you, but allow me to stay unimpressed back then, and now.
If I were you I could say "If you want to explore the worlds, play Vampire the Masquerade, Gothic 1 and 2, Morrowing, etc... not some "find 3 keys" in a labyrinth full with ugly textures".
but I won't say that, because tastes are different.

All I want to say:
It's not true that everyone was impressed with the Doom at it's release.
Many weren't, and many didn't sell Amiga because of that.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

All I want to say:
It's not true that everyone was impressed with the Doom at it's release.
Many weren't, and many didn't sell Amiga because of that.

Yeah that's me... totally with you d4rk3lf.

Massively overrated game IMHO, and I definitely wasn't impressed when released on PC and couldn't understand the hype

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by DamienD

Yeah that's me... totally with you d4rk3lf.

Massively overrated game IMHO, and I definitely wasn't impressed when released on PC and couldn't understand the hype

Add the word "Eternal" and I'll happily agree with you two.

[matt3k]

Amiga missed it's time in history when Thomas Rattigan was removed from Commodore, it illustrated the poison pill they had that would bring their demise. I guess one could argue that the 3000D era there was still hope if they would have signed with Sun and not hired Ali. The sad truth is that when the AGA equipment finally came out, it was already game over for a multitude of reasons.

Look, I didn't make the shift until the PC until Quake 2 hit the market and that drove me to purchase a pc for games and still use the 3000 for what I could. Even in the earlier 90's getting a decked out Amiga to compete with a decked out PC was getting hard. Windows sucked (still does imho), the Amiga had a elegant design and the pc was a brute force club, and I wasn't a fan. That said it started to surpass the Amiga in capabilities and games, yes I know that there were exceptions but the trends were the trends.

CD32 was cool, nice that it was an Amiga with a cd rom and ability to add a keyboard and mouse. My vote would go to the original 1000 or the 3000 as the best Amigas though.

[jotd]

the PC VGA mode and the ST had that in common: they were easier to program games with.

[Gilbert]

Originally Posted by Foebane

So Gilbert, as an example of Amiga Paula music, ignores the Turrican series entirely and cites the godawful Xenon II soundtrack as a prime example instead.

My God, don't let Gilbert near the high quality of Amiga Demoscene music, especially high-end 68060 stuff, as it will blow his mind!

The title screen music on Xenon I is the full track. Doesn't get much better than that! Shows what you can do with the full 4 channels.


[ Show youtube player ]


It doesn't matter how good your 060 music is - the CD32 can do it by just playing it straight off CD. And still have 4 channels left over


I said Turrican was good music - I had Turrican 1 and 2 back in the day. BTW have you seen Gunlord on Neo Geo? Is easily better than Turrican 1 and up there with Turrican 2. Well worth looking at (is on Nintendo Switch now) if you like that game. The first boss is so cool

[mcgeezer]

Doom never impressed me when it came out, you needed to spend a shit load of money on a PC to play for a start. What I was impressed with though was Ridge Racer on the PS1 - when I seen that game running it was curtains for the Amiga as a gaming platform.

But... to answer the question... Amiga's in order of greatness

The 20 year old me says the greatest consumer grade Amiga's were as follows...

A500, A1200, CD32, A600

The 45 year old me says it's now...

A1200, A500, CD32, A600

The Amiga for me was so much more than a gaming platform. Therefore the statement in the title is not correct in my opinion.

Geezer

[Gilbert]

Originally Posted by FOL

Well AA auto company is first thing I thought off. Certainly not Alcholics Annoymous.

I heard Alcoholics Anoymous has now changed it's name now to AGA just in case people confused it with a computer chip

[Gilbert]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

Doom never impressed me when it came out, you needed to spend a shit load of money on a PC to play for a start. What I was impressed with though was Ridge Racer on the PS1 - when I seen that game running it was curtains for the Amiga as a gaming platform.

But... to answer the question... Amiga's in order of greatness

The 20 year old me says the greatest consumer grade Amiga's were as follows...

A500, A1200, CD32, A600

The 45 year old me says it's now...

A1200, A500, CD32, A600

The Amiga for me was so much more than a gaming platform. Therefore the statement in the title is not correct in my opinion.

Geezer

You need to give reasons. Otherwise just looks like you are hating on the greatest Amiga (The CD32). Especially since the CD32 is an enhanced A1200....

[jotd]

I don't agree that A500 is better than CD32. No way. In terms of impact, it's true (A500 was a great machine when it came out) but CD32 is technically superior. The only issue is that you can't play adventure games because you can't use savegame (unless the game writes to nonvolatile, which is not great)

[Gilbert]

Originally Posted by pipper

Akiko could have been much more useful if it was a true DMA device doing the c2p conversion in parallel to the CPU. They should have made the c2p conversion a new DMA device or implement it as a new Blitter mode, but I guess they didn’t have the time to do it properly.

So what happens when you do a c2p conversion - you are saying the Amiga just freezes? Surely you can still do CPU work? or does it write to CPU registers?

[Gilbert]

Originally Posted by jotd

I don't agree that A500 is better than CD32. No way. In terms of impact, it's true (A500 was a great machine when it came out) but CD32 is technically superior. The only issue is that you can't play adventure games because you can't use savegame (unless the game writes to nonvolatile, which is not great)

Yes that's exactly what I think too. A500 was way better than CD32 in terms of impact at the time. But CD32 is a big step ahead in absolute terms

If you allow an upgrade to A500 ram (e.g. half meg upgrade) which was standard back then - then you could also add Fast Ram to CD32 and make it twice as fast

One thing I don't like about the CD32 is the way they ripped off the Megadrive case - down to the volume control and headphone socket - whoever used that on Megadrive anyway? Also the case is a poor design. Like it was not done by a real designer

It was cool it had "32 Bit" emblazoned across it though.

[FOL]

Originally Posted by Gilbert

I heard Alcoholics Anoymous has now changed it's name now to AGA just in case people confused it with a computer chip

Hmmmmm, not sure how to take that, lol.


Alcoholics Go Anoymous, doesn't sound right, .

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Gilbert

So what happens when you do a c2p conversion - you are saying the Amiga just freezes? Surely you can still do CPU work? or does it write to CPU registers?

If you are interested in Akiko, here is some info from Gunnar from Apolo team.
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge...28256&z=ZrTXsF

I can't say he is right or wrong, because I am noob at hardware, but it' was an interesting read.. at least for me.

(p.s, let's avoid Vampire discussions, I gave link to Gilbert, only because Akiko).

[mcgeezer]

Originally Posted by Gilbert

You need to give reasons. Otherwise just looks like you are hating on the greatest Amiga (The CD32). Especially since the CD32 is an enhanced A1200....

What are you talking about, i’m not hating on any Amiga’s and i gave my answer in my response. Amiga was much more than a gaming platform, the CD32 is an A1200 with Cdrom drive and sub par 3d processing chip. It offered very little over and above what was already on the Amiga platform.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

i’m not hating on any Amiga’s

Yes, you hate every Amiga!
If you didn't hate it, you would create Final Fight, or Shinobi, or Rolling Thunder.. etc... almost aracade perfect port for OCS!

Sorry, but I had to (try)...