Is 'save state' cheating?

Anubis · 14 March 2007, 15:16

I know it's an old topic, but I wonder if your opinions change with aging. For example as years passed I have less and less time to play games.

I don’t think that save state are cheats.

Save state comes handy as I can play the game in 15 minutes blocks and in couple days I can finish game that otherwise I would play for 2-3 hours?! Who can spend 2-3 hours now days to complete the game?? Kids, wife, house, work and all other things that are happening now in our life are making sure we don't have any more that luxury.

Also not to forget that some games were insane, like required you to play for couple hours to finish the game without save point, code or any other means to make game finishable.

So what's your opinion?

keropi · 14 March 2007, 15:21

it is, but it depends on it's use... if u only use it to continue gaming sessions it is not, but if u use it every second and thus avoid loosing lives etc... then it is!

Shoonay · 14 March 2007, 15:44

It's a no-no for using it every time you loose your life.
So, exactly what keropi said, with exeptions

...

Game's like Dragon's Lair or Space Ace are just unplayable without a serious save-load feature.

... another thing is: are those game's playable at all?

Anyways, i consider it not cheating, if used "fairly" with thyself

killergorilla · 14 March 2007, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoonay

Game's like Dragon's Lair or Space Ace are just unplayable without a serious save-load feature.

... another thing is: are those game's playable at all?

A better question is: are they 'games' at all?

kriz · 14 March 2007, 15:59

Ofcourse its cheating!

killergorilla · 14 March 2007, 16:07

It's like saying "Is a vegetable knife" a weapon.

No it's not, it's for cutting vegetables.

But yes, it can be used as a weapon.

Vegetables.

Mad-Matt · 14 March 2007, 16:08

its either save state or never play the game again when something out of your control kills you 90% in. Much swearing and throwing tapes around back in the day until my c64 was blessed with an action replay

I dont concider it cheating. I played and work hard to get to the state i did and would like to see the end of the game if i can push through.

Retroplay · 14 March 2007, 16:10

It depends on which game you do it in.
Take Jaguar XJ220 it's nice to be able to save now and then without having to start from scratch everytime I wanna play it.
But I never use it anyway it's too unreliable, I was halfway through Jag and decided to save.
Next day I wanted to continue but all I got after loading the state was a guru

andreas · 14 March 2007, 16:16

IMO it's NOT cheating.

Just because:
- you have to play everything yourself; there is no unlimited energy trainers, etc., so if you are unlucky, you will have to play one scene 20 times until you can finally beat it

- it can be regarded as a supplement for a missing save function in the game, which probably could not be implemented because of disk space shortage. Am I kidding you? Not really, as it was VERY essential for game publishers to know whether the game will need 2 or 3 disks, since you have to multiply the total number of disks in one box with the (hopefully

) huge number of users that will buy it. And this can be several 100,000 disks more.
So if they could get the dev team to downsize everything to fit on only TWO disks, they did try it! Just read all those stories about game musicians who had to convert their tracks to MONO (formerly stereo) to save disk space!

Shoonay · 14 March 2007, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by killergorilla

Vegetables.

Yeah, yeah, and fruits too!
Hard as rock Coconuts for example...
Hell, even a 12V PSU can kill, if it fall on one's head from high above

DDNI · 14 March 2007, 16:29

Dragons lair/Space Ace, just type the cheats and watch em through

AmigaBoy · 14 March 2007, 16:35

Without a doubt, it's cheating.

A game is developed in a certain way, the way the developers intended for you to play the game. If they decided they'd make it the hardest thing on Earth, then that's how you as the gamer have to conquer it. Use whatever skill you have to figure out a way to beat the game. For example, in the case of Space Ace, when I was younger, that was one of very few games that I owned. It was difficult, but I was able to master it with some patience. I can now run through the game with no problems (as sad as that sounds).

Cheats built into a game are a different story. The developers have said "Yes. We know the game is difficult. Here's some help". Yes, that's cheating, but it's cheating with permission...sorta.

When it comes to save states however, you're pretty much breaking the rules that the player has set out. It's like playing Monopoly and you end up going to Jail. You can't say "Gee. That sucked. I'll just go back to my last position and I'll roll again". Those aren't the rules.

I agree, save states are EXTREMELY handy and they make some games much more playable, but they're still cheating. I use them frequently, but only when I don't have enough time to play a game through. The way I use them is as a one-off restart point. For example, if I were playing The Last Ninja 2 and I made it to the 2nd level but I had to stop playing for some reason, I'd save my state. Later I'd come back and restart from that point, however I'd only use it once so it's like I never left at all

Shoonay · 14 March 2007, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

If they decided they'd make it the hardest thing on Earth, then that's how you as the gamer have to conquer it.

Hey, you sound like it's breaking the law or something

But, ever thought, that so do the developers, making some games ULTRA HARDCORE VERY MUCHOS HARD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

I agree, save states are EXTREMELY handy and they make some games much more playable, but they're still cheating. I use them frequently, but only when I don't have enough time to play a game through. The way I use them is as a one-off restart point. For example, if I were playing The Last Ninja 2 and I made it to the 2nd level but I had to stop playing for some reason, I'd save my state. Later I'd come back and restart from that point, however I'd only use it once so it's like I never left at all

Exactly. That's why I think consider it non-cheating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

Cheats built into a game are a different story. The developers have said "Yes. We know the game is difficult. Here's some help". Yes, that's cheating, but it's cheating with permission...sorta.

Don't forget betatesting purposes for the developers themselfs...

Anubis · 14 March 2007, 16:42

@ Jason - can't save state be used as training tool? Why to play first level over and over again just to explore 2nd level?

I mean, you already made it to second level, why you have to redo it again??

And as for you comment about developers, they are people as well. They made mistakes, don't they? (ever had a bug in the game?

)

I second andreas' opinion. Develpers had limitad space, and sometimes adding save function or pass code was unwanted (and not paid) 'extra' work as well.

killergorilla · 14 March 2007, 16:54

I agree with Jason's post in pretty much everyway

Cut those vegetables damnit, don't attack people.

Ironclaw · 14 March 2007, 16:59

Yes, using savestates is cheating, even if it's just to continue a game later, as on a real Amiga, you CAN'T continue later (unless the game has such feature) and have to do it in one go, or if you get passwords you will still have to redo that stage.

Any usage of savestates is cheating

. IMO!

Anubis · 14 March 2007, 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironclaw

Yes, using savestates is cheating, even if it's just to continue a game later, as on a real Amiga, you CAN'T continue later (unless the game has such feature) and have to do it in one go, or if you get passwords you will still have to redo that stage.

Any usage of savestates is cheating

. IMO!

Ever heard of Action Replay?

Ironclaw · 14 March 2007, 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anubis

Ever heard of Action Replay?

Yup, but never had one... can u save and load any location with AR on a real Amiga, like Winuae?.

Shoonay · 14 March 2007, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironclaw

Yes, using savestates is cheating, even if it's just to continue a game later, as on a real Amiga, you CAN'T continue later (unless the game has such feature) and have to do it in one go, or if you get passwords you will still have to redo that stage.

The lack of continueability = having to start from the beginning, I consider a BUG!

Ironclaw · 14 March 2007, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoonay

The lack of continueability = having to start from the beginning, I consider a BUG!

, so many bugged games then

.

View Poll Results: Is using 'save state' considered cheating?
Yes, it is!	18	56.25%
No, it's not!	9	28.13%
Not so sure...	5	15.63%
Erm, save what?	0	0%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

14 March 2007, 15:16	#1
Anubis Retro Gamer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Underworld Age: 51 Posts: 4,058	Is 'save state' cheating? I know it's an old topic, but I wonder if your opinions change with aging. For example as years passed I have less and less time to play games. I don’t think that save state are cheats. Save state comes handy as I can play the game in 15 minutes blocks and in couple days I can finish game that otherwise I would play for 2-3 hours?! Who can spend 2-3 hours now days to complete the game?? Kids, wife, house, work and all other things that are happening now in our life are making sure we don't have any more that luxury. Also not to forget that some games were insane, like required you to play for couple hours to finish the game without save point, code or any other means to make game finishable. So what's your opinion?

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14 March 2007, 15:21	#2
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	it is, but it depends on it's use... if u only use it to continue gaming sessions it is not, but if u use it every second and thus avoid loosing lives etc... then it is!

14 March 2007, 15:44	#3
Shoonay Global Caturator Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Porando Age: 43 Posts: 6,105	It's a no-no for using it every time you loose your life. So, exactly what keropi said, with exeptions ... Game's like Dragon's Lair or Space Ace are just unplayable without a serious save-load feature. ... another thing is: are those game's playable at all? Anyways, i consider it not cheating, if used "fairly" with thyself

14 March 2007, 15:59	#5
kriz Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: No(R)Way Age: 41 Posts: 3,188	Ofcourse its cheating!

14 March 2007, 16:07	#6
killergorilla Lesser Talent Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 7,957	It's like saying "Is a vegetable knife" a weapon. No it's not, it's for cutting vegetables. But yes, it can be used as a weapon. Vegetables.

14 March 2007, 16:08	#7
Mad-Matt Longplayer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Lincoln / UK Age: 44 Posts: 1,848	its either save state or never play the game again when something out of your control kills you 90% in. Much swearing and throwing tapes around back in the day until my c64 was blessed with an action replay I dont concider it cheating. I played and work hard to get to the state i did and would like to see the end of the game if i can push through.

14 March 2007, 16:10	#8
Retroplay Lemon Curry ? Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Denmark Age: 49 Posts: 4,081	It depends on which game you do it in. Take Jaguar XJ220 it's nice to be able to save now and then without having to start from scratch everytime I wanna play it. But I never use it anyway it's too unreliable, I was halfway through Jag and decided to save. Next day I wanted to continue but all I got after loading the state was a guru

14 March 2007, 16:16	#9
andreas Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Germany Age: 50 Posts: 5,857	IMO it's NOT cheating. Just because: - you have to play everything yourself; there is no unlimited energy trainers, etc., so if you are unlucky, you will have to play one scene 20 times until you can finally beat it - it can be regarded as a supplement for a missing save function in the game, which probably could not be implemented because of disk space shortage. Am I kidding you? Not really, as it was VERY essential for game publishers to know whether the game will need 2 or 3 disks, since you have to multiply the total number of disks in one box with the (hopefully ) huge number of users that will buy it. And this can be several 100,000 disks more. So if they could get the dev team to downsize everything to fit on only TWO disks, they did try it! Just read all those stories about game musicians who had to convert their tracks to MONO (formerly stereo) to save disk space!

14 March 2007, 16:29	#11
DDNI Targ Explorer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 5,431	Dragons lair/Space Ace, just type the cheats and watch em through

14 March 2007, 16:35	#12
AmigaBoy Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: 19 Jump Street Posts: 238	Without a doubt, it's cheating. A game is developed in a certain way, the way the developers intended for you to play the game. If they decided they'd make it the hardest thing on Earth, then that's how you as the gamer have to conquer it. Use whatever skill you have to figure out a way to beat the game. For example, in the case of Space Ace, when I was younger, that was one of very few games that I owned. It was difficult, but I was able to master it with some patience. I can now run through the game with no problems (as sad as that sounds). Cheats built into a game are a different story. The developers have said "Yes. We know the game is difficult. Here's some help". Yes, that's cheating, but it's cheating with permission...sorta. When it comes to save states however, you're pretty much breaking the rules that the player has set out. It's like playing Monopoly and you end up going to Jail. You can't say "Gee. That sucked. I'll just go back to my last position and I'll roll again". Those aren't the rules. I agree, save states are EXTREMELY handy and they make some games much more playable, but they're still cheating. I use them frequently, but only when I don't have enough time to play a game through. The way I use them is as a one-off restart point. For example, if I were playing The Last Ninja 2 and I made it to the 2nd level but I had to stop playing for some reason, I'd save my state. Later I'd come back and restart from that point, however I'd only use it once so it's like I never left at all

14 March 2007, 16:42	#14
Anubis Retro Gamer Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Underworld Age: 51 Posts: 4,058	@ Jason - can't save state be used as training tool? Why to play first level over and over again just to explore 2nd level? I mean, you already made it to second level, why you have to redo it again?? And as for you comment about developers, they are people as well. They made mistakes, don't they? (ever had a bug in the game? ) I second andreas' opinion. Develpers had limitad space, and sometimes adding save function or pass code was unwanted (and not paid) 'extra' work as well.

14 March 2007, 16:54	#15
killergorilla Lesser Talent Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 7,957	I agree with Jason's post in pretty much everyway Cut those vegetables damnit, don't attack people.

14 March 2007, 16:59	#16
Ironclaw Banned Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: ... Age: 45 Posts: 3,313	Yes, using savestates is cheating, even if it's just to continue a game later, as on a real Amiga, you CAN'T continue later (unless the game has such feature) and have to do it in one go, or if you get passwords you will still have to redo that stage. Any usage of savestates is cheating . IMO!

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