KryoFlux USB Floppy Controller (was: C2 DiskSystem)

IFW · 04 October 2009, 17:12

This thread is about the C2 DiskSystem.
Updates and WIP will be here.

mr.vince · 04 October 2009, 23:10

C2 DiskSystem - What's this?

The C2 (short for "Capture Tool Mk 2") DiskSystem will be used for dumping of various disk formats and is intended to replace the Softpres dumping tool, currently running on legacy Amiga hardware. It will also be able to write disks, but this is further down the roadmap.

The technology behind the C2 DiskSystem is having an ATMEL ARM board with some components and a disk drive attached to the PC via an USB connection. We're not sure if the board used for prototyping will be sufficient to reliably read HD disks.

Please note that while the set of features is similar to the Cyclone20 project, this is a completely new implementation of the idea with a completely new codebase. It currently does work with the identical hardware setup, please note that a fix is needed for some dev boards (e.g. the "Ukranian" type).

The project goal is to produce PCBs with a reduced set of components and a ready-made connector to attach different types of drives to. We do not recommend to anyone getting one of these boards - right now.

mr.vince · 04 October 2009, 23:41

How to fix the "Ukrainian" board:

There are several revisions of the ATMEL dev board AT91SAM7S256. There is a major "bug" with older revisions. For unknown reasons, the USB pullup on some of the board does not work. Because of this, the board is unable to enumerate again (simulation being removed and reinserted again). This makes it impossible to e.g. reset the board and inform the computer (correctly) about the changed status.

There is a circuit found on the E revision of the Olimex boards which will solve this problem. All older boards do not work. The Ukranian board has a circuit "borrowed" (like the rest of the design) from the D revision of the Olimex board. However, both seem to be wrong. This circuit is pictured on the diagram which reads "Ukranian". This is for reference only. Do not build it this way. The Olimex is the way to go!

What I have done is rebuild the rev. E circuit and insert it on the Ukranian board. Maybe this also fixes older Olimex boards. I assume so, looking at other forums.

Please be aware that the following might destroy your board, your computer's USB port or worse. YOU DO THE FOLLOWING MODIFICATIONS ON YOUR OWN RISK! It's late and I might have written something wrong.

Look at the front your board. To your right you can build your own rev. E circuit. I used a PNP transistor and resistors R38 and R39. I forgot to buy R40, but this is (as well as R39) already on the board... so... I did not care. Just build that circuit as shown on the diagram. Leave out R40 if you want to use the one already on the board, as well as R38.

Now you have to wire it to the board. Locate R3. Cut the trace AFTER R3 to the right of R3. Do this with a sharp knife! If you happen to have R39 in your circuit, solder the wire to the LEFT of R3, otherwise to the right. The other end of the cable goes to the left pin (one of the P pins) of the transistor as seen on the rev. E diagram. Please note, that on my board the transistor was soldered with P pins facing up and down, so the cable goes straight to R39 which is connected to this pin.

The N pin of the resistor (on my board to the left, on the diag to the bottom) is connected to 3.3V via R38 (47KOhm) and also soldered to the left of R6. Make sure to cut traces above and below R6. If you happen to have a 100 Ohm resistor (R40) in your circuit, solder to the RIGHT of R6, otherwise to the LEFT. Note that the signal from R6 goes to the other side right after "leaving" the resistor to the right.

Turn the board.

It is now time to cut the trace coming from R6. Make sure you cut the right one. This is necessary because the signal goes to GPIO25 for pullup. We need it at 16, so locate PA16 on the back of the board and solder from the point where R6 comes through to the back of the board (you have to gently remove the coating with e.g. a screwdriver or another sharp tool) to PA16. Now all you need to do is power the circuit. Connect the topmost pin (3.3 volts) to the LEFT of the circuit. In my case: DOWN.

That's it. Now the board can enumerate itself again by pulling GPIO16 low.

BEWARE! This post has not been double checked. Execute with care or wait a few days...

Attention: If you have any questions or suspect an error - do not power on. Ask. There is currently no software publically available for this board, which can use this feature. Feel free to ask if you have questions.

IMPORTANT: This fix is (currently) not needed for Cyclone20. Richard Aplin will let you know if he wants to make use of this feature.

gizmomelb · 05 October 2009, 13:33

maybe going off topic, but will it be able to emulate a floppy drive, so we can use it to play games when floppy drives eventually all fail and aren't available any more?

mr.vince · 05 October 2009, 14:18

This is currently not on the roadmap. You can use HxC, which is e.g. able to read IPF files for this purpose.

IFW · 05 October 2009, 15:29

The disk preservation issues (read, write) are being addressed first. If there is serious interest in emulation we'll consider it, but HxC is an existing and working solution.

alexh · 05 October 2009, 17:13

You are designing a new PCB? Have some/complete control over the form factor, position of connectors, screw holes etc?

Can I suggest that you try to replicate the form factor of a physical 3.5" floppy drive? It should not be too much of a constraint.

Rectangular PCB with FDD power & data connectors on a short edge (positioned approximately where they would be on a floppy drive). The SD card slot diametrically opposite where the FDD slot would be. Screw holes (or at least unused space) where the FDD retainers would be.

That way if floppy emulation does become a reality, it would already be the perfect size & shape to replace an internal FDD.

alexh · 05 October 2009, 17:29

Are the primary goals of the C2 :

make dumping easier
a more flexible FDC allowing for the write back of all formats
increase the number of people actively dumping disks

??

The vast majority of users are unlikely to buy a C2 just to dump disks for SPS do you not agree? Will the ability to write back data to real disks be enough of a reason to buy one? For me it is not (but I am just one person). Returning to disks seems crazy to me.

I appreciate that commercialisation is probably not your goal. It is preservation.

Do you currently get more dumps than you can cope with as it is?

However do you think users could be persuaded to do both (buy and dump) if FDD emulation was a C2 feature, even if it was a future one?

mr.vince · 05 October 2009, 23:33

I agree that casual users will not buy this hardware. Nor will they want to get an A1200 with turbo board, lots of RAM and a harddrive.

The new piece of hardware is small, reliable and it can be shipped easily. People will need a source for images, so if there is a way to make raw dumps work with HxC (at least the ones not needing scripting), I think this is a yes. I also have no idea how expensive a custom made unit will be, but given the price for the CPU alone (EUR 10,-) this can't be very expensive.

But, to be honest: The Cyclone20 project had many goals with people demanding more and more. In the end, Rich focused on other things and that is where the project is right now.

Our idea is to just do this now, make it dump and then make it write. We're also looking into supporting floppy formats which were not available to us before: C64, Spectrum, etc.

alexh · 05 October 2009, 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.vince

The new piece of hardware is small, reliable and it can be shipped easily.

The design is finished?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.vince

People will need a source for images, so if there is a way to make raw dumps work with HxC (at least the ones not needing scripting), I think this is a yes.

Unfortunately the HxC concept of needing a host does not appeal to everyone. Which is one of the reasons why I think it has not been a run away success, especially for other platforms which do not have native hard drives.

I understand what you're saying, it is intended for SPS related use and if people want one they'll be able to get one.

I respect you guys for having the time and energy for anything like this.

IFW · 06 October 2009, 00:06

Ok, I was not aware that HxC only works with a host... but this may be something that the author will change eventually anyway?

Yes, it's correct. However there is no reason not to have an .adf/.st dumping capability as it seems to be a popular request.

mr.vince · 06 October 2009, 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

The design is finished?

If we end up with the ATMEL thing, there is not much to change or carry over to a custom made PCB. You have the main chip, some resistors and transistors, maybe some capacitors. An USB socket. And a pin header. That's it. Mostly. Should fit in a box of cigarettes, even smaller.

Jeff_HxC2001 · 07 October 2009, 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Unfortunately the HxC concept of needing a host does not appeal to everyone. Which is one of the reasons why I think it has not been a run away success, especially for other platforms which do not have native hard drives.

bullshit :
Before writing something like this, please read the hxc floppy emulator project webpage.

There are a standalone version since 2 years now...
http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_...res/index.html

http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_...Floppyemulator

the forum :
http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/index.php

and the USB HxC Floppy Emulator (non-standalone) is a success (~200 units sold)

kipper2k · 07 October 2009, 22:12

the ability to write back ipfs and other formats to floppy to me has always been on top of my list. How many hacked games out there crash, have messed up grfx, i dont really care about the loading times as long as i know the game is less likely to crash. I think there are probably a lot of people who think the same way.

(Lets have a Poll!!

alexh · 07 October 2009, 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001

There are a standalone version since 2 years now...http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_...res/index.html

Where can I buy one and how many have you sold?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_HxC2001

and the USB HxC Floppy Emulator (non-standalone) is a success (~200 units sold)

200 is a good number. I only doubted the success because I've never seen one in the wild. Seen lots of spectrum's with DivIDE, Atari 800's with MyIDE, C64's with 1541 Ultimates but I've never seen a HxC. I talk to people and they say that they don't want something that needs a host.

I still stick to my guns that it could be a better design for a stand alone system to physically replace an FDD, effortlessly.

It is certainly a much better project than anything I have ever done and I take my hat off to you.

alexh · 07 October 2009, 23:40

@kipper2k
Would you really rather write back images to 20yo physical disks?

Wouldn't a FDD emulator which supported IPF and dispensed with the disk medium be better?

(I appreciate this is not what the C2 will aim to do, just debating the topic)

mr.vince · 08 October 2009, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

(I appreciate this is not what the C2 will aim to do, just debating the topic)

Please feel free. But please don't abuse the C2 thread for this.

I can only say that we want to make step 1 before making step 2. And I really appreciate that HxC is there and works and does support IPF.

kipper2k · 08 October 2009, 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

@kipper2k
Would you really rather write back images to 20yo physical disks?

Wouldn't a FDD emulator which supported IPF and dispensed with the disk medium be better?

(I appreciate this is not what the C2 will aim to do, just debating the topic)

I think both have their merits, to me its about authenticity and not just emulation. playing ipf images using Winuae is great, but!, i remember when the floppy medium came out on the c64 and the Amiga and i would pop the cover off the drives watching it load and being fascinated by it. I remember all those Mastertronic games that had the 23 error on the tracks that i would look for so i could figure out where it was, maybe a bit nostalgic but i'm all for having the options available.

alexh · 08 October 2009, 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by kipper2k

to me its about authenticity and not just emulation. playing ipf images using Winuae is great, but

Erm, it's not that kind of emulation. N'mind. Lets move this off somewhere else we're choking up someone's thread.

Jeff_HxC2001 · 08 October 2009, 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Where can I buy one and how many have you sold?

200 is a good number. I only doubted the success because I've never seen one in the wild. Seen lots of spectrum's with DivIDE, Atari 800's with MyIDE, C64's with 1541 Ultimates but I've never seen a HxC. I talk to people and they say that they don't want something that needs a host.

I still stick to my guns that it could be a better design for a stand alone system to physically replace an FDD, effortlessly.

It is certainly a much better project than anything I have ever done and I take my hat off to you.

different batchs has been build and sold (80e) by CrazyIcecap, Giants and PeterSieg since 2007:

http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopic.php?t=129

http://www.forum64.de/wbb3/index.php...23289&pageNo=3
http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopic.php?t=242
http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewt...r=asc&start=15
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40706
http://www.amigaimpact.org/modules/n...p?storyid=2413

Now we are switching to the sdcard version ;-)

remember that the project forum is there : http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/

04 October 2009, 17:12	#1
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	KryoFlux USB Floppy Controller (was: C2 DiskSystem) This thread is about the C2 DiskSystem. Updates and WIP will be here.

04 October 2009, 23:41	#3
mr.vince Cheesy crust Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hawk's Creek Age: 48 Posts: 1,383	How to fix the "Ukrainian" board: There are several revisions of the ATMEL dev board AT91SAM7S256. There is a major "bug" with older revisions. For unknown reasons, the USB pullup on some of the board does not work. Because of this, the board is unable to enumerate again (simulation being removed and reinserted again). This makes it impossible to e.g. reset the board and inform the computer (correctly) about the changed status. There is a circuit found on the E revision of the Olimex boards which will solve this problem. All older boards do not work. The Ukranian board has a circuit "borrowed" (like the rest of the design) from the D revision of the Olimex board. However, both seem to be wrong. This circuit is pictured on the diagram which reads "Ukranian". This is for reference only. Do not build it this way. The Olimex is the way to go! What I have done is rebuild the rev. E circuit and insert it on the Ukranian board. Maybe this also fixes older Olimex boards. I assume so, looking at other forums. Please be aware that the following might destroy your board, your computer's USB port or worse. YOU DO THE FOLLOWING MODIFICATIONS ON YOUR OWN RISK! It's late and I might have written something wrong. Look at the front your board. To your right you can build your own rev. E circuit. I used a PNP transistor and resistors R38 and R39. I forgot to buy R40, but this is (as well as R39) already on the board... so... I did not care. Just build that circuit as shown on the diagram. Leave out R40 if you want to use the one already on the board, as well as R38. Now you have to wire it to the board. Locate R3. Cut the trace AFTER R3 to the right of R3. Do this with a sharp knife! If you happen to have R39 in your circuit, solder the wire to the LEFT of R3, otherwise to the right. The other end of the cable goes to the left pin (one of the P pins) of the transistor as seen on the rev. E diagram. Please note, that on my board the transistor was soldered with P pins facing up and down, so the cable goes straight to R39 which is connected to this pin. The N pin of the resistor (on my board to the left, on the diag to the bottom) is connected to 3.3V via R38 (47KOhm) and also soldered to the left of R6. Make sure to cut traces above and below R6. If you happen to have a 100 Ohm resistor (R40) in your circuit, solder to the RIGHT of R6, otherwise to the LEFT. Note that the signal from R6 goes to the other side right after "leaving" the resistor to the right. Turn the board. It is now time to cut the trace coming from R6. Make sure you cut the right one. This is necessary because the signal goes to GPIO25 for pullup. We need it at 16, so locate PA16 on the back of the board and solder from the point where R6 comes through to the back of the board (you have to gently remove the coating with e.g. a screwdriver or another sharp tool) to PA16. Now all you need to do is power the circuit. Connect the topmost pin (3.3 volts) to the LEFT of the circuit. In my case: DOWN. That's it. Now the board can enumerate itself again by pulling GPIO16 low. BEWARE! This post has not been double checked. Execute with care or wait a few days... Attention: If you have any questions or suspect an error - do not power on. Ask. There is currently no software publically available for this board, which can use this feature. Feel free to ask if you have questions. IMPORTANT: This fix is (currently) not needed for Cyclone20. Richard Aplin will let you know if he wants to make use of this feature. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by mr.vince; 07 February 2010 at 09:47. Reason: typo

05 October 2009, 17:13	#7
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,337	You are designing a new PCB? Have some/complete control over the form factor, position of connectors, screw holes etc? Can I suggest that you try to replicate the form factor of a physical 3.5" floppy drive? It should not be too much of a constraint. Rectangular PCB with FDD power & data connectors on a short edge (positioned approximately where they would be on a floppy drive). The SD card slot diametrically opposite where the FDD slot would be. Screw holes (or at least unused space) where the FDD retainers would be. That way if floppy emulation does become a reality, it would already be the perfect size & shape to replace an internal FDD. Last edited by alexh; 05 October 2009 at 17:27.

05 October 2009, 17:29	#8
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,337	Are the primary goals of the C2 : make dumping easier a more flexible FDC allowing for the write back of all formats increase the number of people actively dumping disks ?? The vast majority of users are unlikely to buy a C2 just to dump disks for SPS do you not agree? Will the ability to write back data to real disks be enough of a reason to buy one? For me it is not (but I am just one person). Returning to disks seems crazy to me. I appreciate that commercialisation is probably not your goal. It is preservation. Do you currently get more dumps than you can cope with as it is? However do you think users could be persuaded to do both (buy and dump) if FDD emulation was a C2 feature, even if it was a future one? Last edited by alexh; 05 October 2009 at 17:42.

07 October 2009, 23:40	#16
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,337	@kipper2k Would you really rather write back images to 20yo physical disks? Wouldn't a FDD emulator which supported IPF and dispensed with the disk medium be better? (I appreciate this is not what the C2 will aim to do, just debating the topic) Last edited by alexh; 07 October 2009 at 23:51.

04 October 2009, 23:10	#2
mr.vince Cheesy crust Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hawk's Creek Age: 48 Posts: 1,383	C2 DiskSystem - What's this? The C2 (short for "Capture Tool Mk 2") DiskSystem will be used for dumping of various disk formats and is intended to replace the Softpres dumping tool, currently running on legacy Amiga hardware. It will also be able to write disks, but this is further down the roadmap. The technology behind the C2 DiskSystem is having an ATMEL ARM board with some components and a disk drive attached to the PC via an USB connection. We're not sure if the board used for prototyping will be sufficient to reliably read HD disks. Please note that while the set of features is similar to the Cyclone20 project, this is a completely new implementation of the idea with a completely new codebase. It currently does work with the identical hardware setup, please note that a fix is needed for some dev boards (e.g. the "Ukranian" type). The project goal is to produce PCBs with a reduced set of components and a ready-made connector to attach different types of drives to. We do not recommend to anyone getting one of these boards - right now.

05 October 2009, 13:33	#4
gizmomelb Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: melbourne Age: 55 Posts: 541	maybe going off topic, but will it be able to emulate a floppy drive, so we can use it to play games when floppy drives eventually all fail and aren't available any more?

05 October 2009, 14:18	#5
mr.vince Cheesy crust Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hawk's Creek Age: 48 Posts: 1,383	This is currently not on the roadmap. You can use HxC, which is e.g. able to read IPF files for this purpose.

05 October 2009, 15:29	#6
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	The disk preservation issues (read, write) are being addressed first. If there is serious interest in emulation we'll consider it, but HxC is an existing and working solution.

05 October 2009, 23:33	#9
mr.vince Cheesy crust Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Hawk's Creek Age: 48 Posts: 1,383	I agree that casual users will not buy this hardware. Nor will they want to get an A1200 with turbo board, lots of RAM and a harddrive. The new piece of hardware is small, reliable and it can be shipped easily. People will need a source for images, so if there is a way to make raw dumps work with HxC (at least the ones not needing scripting), I think this is a yes. I also have no idea how expensive a custom made unit will be, but given the price for the CPU alone (EUR 10,-) this can't be very expensive. But, to be honest: The Cyclone20 project had many goals with people demanding more and more. In the end, Rich focused on other things and that is where the project is right now. Our idea is to just do this now, make it dump and then make it write. We're also looking into supporting floppy formats which were not available to us before: C64, Spectrum, etc.

06 October 2009, 00:06	#11
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Ok, I was not aware that HxC only works with a host... but this may be something that the author will change eventually anyway? Yes, it's correct. However there is no reason not to have an .adf/.st dumping capability as it seems to be a popular request.

07 October 2009, 22:12	#14
kipper2k Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Thunder Bay, Canada Posts: 4,323	the ability to write back ipfs and other formats to floppy to me has always been on top of my list. How many hacked games out there crash, have messed up grfx, i dont really care about the loading times as long as i know the game is less likely to crash. I think there are probably a lot of people who think the same way. (Lets have a Poll!!

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