Games that didn't scroll smoothly - why not? - Page 3

Galahad/FLT · 27 June 2008, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneshotdead

regardless, it does not look as good as X2. And it has slowdown issues, if I remember rightly.

Stylistically, Xenon 2 looks better (with less colours I might add), because Battle Squadron for the most part is trying to emulate the look and feel of Arcade coin-ops of the day, much like Hybris did before it.

As for slowdown issues, they happen rarely in Battle Squadron, but its also doing a hell of a lot more than Xenon 2 is.

Graham Humphrey · 27 June 2008, 10:48

Also I don't think it matters how quick Xenon 2 is, it'd still be rubbish

Codetapper · 27 June 2008, 12:42

Quite aside from the fact that I think Xenon 2 is a slow piece of junk - there was a rather interesting interview/preview in one of the magazines. Sadly, I do not believe it is indexed on the Amiga Magazine Rack.

It had quite a bit of the technical stuff behind the game, including boasts that it was to feature 3 layers of parallax scrolling for the Amiga version. It might have been a slightly more obscure magazine like Ace or TGM. Can anyone remember this feature or know what magazine or issue it was in?

If I find it, I'll put it online assuming I have the mag or scans of it.

Galahad/FLT · 27 June 2008, 13:29

Amiga had 3 levels of paralax and the ST and PC had two, though they did include the stars as a paralax layer.

Photon · 27 June 2008, 13:36

Yeah, we might talk about more enjoyable games.

My main problem with Xenon 2 is that they didn't do it right... apart from the scrolling, the collision detection is so bad it's unplayable. To me. It's a basic and vital function in shooters.

Also, it's so darn easy to make correct scrolling, just reserve a little larger than visible bitmap - to scroll in X just calc scrollreg value 0-15 and word offs, and draw any newly appearing tiles in the margin. For vertical scrolling, just add to the bitmap pointers and insert a split in the copper. For a footie field, race track etc just make a big bitmap

Dunno why some coders used less simple and less efficient routines. Maybe because one has to think about how to scroll the level before you start and sometimes the gfx artist's mouse finger itches?

And coder wants to 'get something on screen quickly'.

Another reason might be easy (lazy) cross platform ports, I know Bitmap Bros wrote their games so ST versions would be as good

as the Amiga versions so they could use the same code. And Graftgold didn't want to use all rastertime because they wanted the games to run in the US, so they went half framerate.

And about large bitmaps, I believe Marble Madness does that, but it's written in c. Blood Money might,too. I think each level seems all the bigger for the extreme slowness of the scroll

Hybris has 50 fps sprites and Battle Squadron has 25 fps ones (except shots?). The scroll is slow, less than 1px/frame, which means scroll code can be skipped every other frame, and makes it appear as 25 fps. Which is as perfect as it can be, since you can't scroll half a pixel.

X-Out and Z-Out are nice I think.

Galahad/FLT · 27 June 2008, 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photon

Yeah, we might talk about more enjoyable games.

My main problem with Xenon 2 is that they didn't do it right... apart from the scrolling, the collision detection is so bad it's unplayable. To me. It's a basic and vital function in shooters.

Also, it's so darn easy to make correct scrolling, just reserve a little larger than visible bitmap - to scroll in X just calc scrollreg value 0-15 and word offs, and draw any newly appearing tiles in the margin. For vertical scrolling, just add to the bitmap pointers and insert a split in the copper. For a footie field, race track etc just make a big bitmap

Dunno why some coders used less simple and less efficient routines. Maybe because one has to think about how to scroll the level before you start and sometimes the gfx artist's mouse finger itches?

And coder wants to 'get something on screen quickly'.

Another reason might be easy (lazy) cross platform ports, I know Bitmap Bros wrote their games so ST versions would be as good

as the Amiga versions so they could use the same code. And Graftgold didn't want to use all rastertime because they wanted the games to run in the US, so they went half framerate.

And about large bitmaps, I believe Marble Madness does that, but it's written in c. Blood Money might,too. I think each level seems all the bigger for the extreme slowness of the scroll

Hybris has 50 fps sprites and Battle Squadron has 25 fps ones (except shots?). The scroll is slow, less than 1px/frame, which means scroll code can be skipped every other frame, and makes it appear as 25 fps. Which is as perfect as it can be, since you can't scroll half a pixel.

X-Out and Z-Out are nice I think.

In the Bitmap Brothers defence, they didn't code Xenon 2

Marcuz · 27 June 2008, 13:47

i know this is a strictly code fucused discussion, still, imho, as long as code is not poor enough to obstacle the gameplay, it is irrilevant to decide if the game was good or not. for instance, exactly because of the design choices, i think Xenon II was a great game

Minuous · 27 June 2008, 15:39

Xenon 2 must surely be one of the most overrated games ever.

Retro-Nerd · 27 June 2008, 15:50

Xenon 2 is style over gameplay/playability. Just like the Alone in the Dark 5 shit. Atari intended to sue some online mags, which rated the game with 30-70%. Now it looks like they made a back down.

@Toni: Thanks for the technical explanation.

Marcuz · 27 June 2008, 17:11

overrated by whom? everybody seems to agree that's a bad game! i still think it's one of the most user-friendly shoot em up ever...

with a big design' fault: the necessity of a joystick with autofire to play it without loose the thumbs.
a good designer/coder should not require some particular ability from the user to experience his product, at least in such a simple platform

humble worm · 27 June 2008, 17:11

I played Battle Squadron 2 times maybe, never to return to the game again while I loved Xenon II. I was unaware of the frame thingies and happy

Graham Humphrey · 27 June 2008, 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by marco pedrana

overrated by whom? everybody seems to agree that's a bad game!

A lot of magazines went mad for it at the time. It still seems pretty popular too and I can't quite work out why. Plutos, SWIV and Banshee wipe the floor with it. Strictly my opinion of course

oneshotdead · 27 June 2008, 17:26

Galahad/FLT:

You don't seem to be pig-headed about X2 like some others here are, so I was wondering if you would deign to explain to me some things...

(By the way, I agree that Battle Squadron is a superior shmup overall, but I disagree on the old "style over substance" thing regarding X2.
The game does have substance; it just happens to also have a lot of style, thanks to the superior graphics assets.
It seems fashionable to dismiss X2 on these forums, but I doubt some of these gamers would have denounced it, back in the day...)

Anyway... if you would deign to answer these few points for me, I would be grateful:

1. Do Battle Squadron sprites and backgrounds really have more colours? I think my eyes might be deceiving me. The tonal gradation looks rather... garish.
2. Is there really more going on in Battle Squadron, and how so?
3. Who did code X2. Were they lazy coders who could easily have made it 50 FPS like Toni asserts, or is he perhaps drawing a long bow?
4. How many layers of parallax does BS have?

Please excuse my ignorance, Galahad.

Retro-Nerd · 27 June 2008, 17:45

I don't think that Xenon 2 has too much substance. It's slow, the enemy formations/wepaons are boring. A tough gameplay generally.

Try some late 80s/early 90s console shooter from Compile like Aleste, Spriggan or Gunhed. They aren't very stylish, but they offers pure fun. Just like Hybris or Battle Squadron.

Damn it, OT once again.

TCD · 27 June 2008, 17:47

Xenon 2 is indeed overrated. The title music by Bomb the Bass made more popular than the game would have been without it IMHO. It's not a really bad game either, but there are many better shoot 'em ups on the Amiga.

@oneshotdead
I'm quite sure that Battle Squadron has more colors on screen and though they could be a bit more decent they look way better than the ones used in Xenon 2.

...and it didn't scroll smoothly

Retro-Nerd · 27 June 2008, 17:51

Especially a lot of Amiga 8bit ports suffers from a bad/jerky scrolling. Has this something to do with the porting process generally?

oneshotdead · 27 June 2008, 17:57

Retro-Nerd: I agree on Gunhed, you advised me on that one - but that is PC Engine (way off topic!)
TheCyberDruid: The colour use in BS is superior to X2? Don't make me laugh! You have no aesthetic taste - like some of these programmers!

Another thing about X2: BIG power-ups. Another reason I doubt the higher framerate would have been possible back then.

But I would love to be proved wrong, as I have already in this thread.

TCD · 27 June 2008, 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Especially a lot of Amiga 8bit ports suffers from a bad/jerky scrolling. Has this something to do with the porting process generally?

Maybe they were all based on a common converting routine or something. It's a bit strange that these ports have worser scrolling on a better platfrom

Can you give some examples?

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneshotdead

TheCyberDruid: The colour use in BS is superior to X2? Don't make me laugh! You have no aesthetic taste - like some of these programmers!

Normally the Bitmap Brothers had a real good taste and the colours they choose where great, but I don't like them on Xenon 2

Batlle Squadron has too harsh colours for my taste, but it still looks better... Hope you had a good laugh

Retro-Nerd · 27 June 2008, 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneshotdead

Retro-Nerd: I agree on Gunhed, you advised me on that one - but that is PC Engine (way off topic!)

Not too much. We are talking about 2D vertical shooter. You could port Gunhed to the migyy with no loss in speed or gameplay, probably.

@CD

Compare the She-Fox/Vixen C64 and Amiga versions.

Asman · 27 June 2008, 18:51

Hi!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photon

Also, it's so darn easy to make correct scrolling, just reserve a little larger than visible bitmap - to scroll in X just calc scrollreg value 0-15 and word offs, and draw any newly appearing tiles in the margin. For vertical scrolling, just add to the bitmap pointers and insert a split in the copper. For a footie field, race track etc just make a big bitmap

There is only one disadvantage, this method eat chip memory - only if you have a500 with 0.5Mb Chip

And If I good understand I need 4 "little larger" bitmaps for double buffered screen. If I'm wrong then please correct me.

Regards

27 June 2008, 12:42	#43
Codetapper 2 contact me: email only! Join Date: May 2001 Location: Auckland / New Zealand Posts: 3,182	Interview or preview boast? Quite aside from the fact that I think Xenon 2 is a slow piece of junk - there was a rather interesting interview/preview in one of the magazines. Sadly, I do not believe it is indexed on the Amiga Magazine Rack. It had quite a bit of the technical stuff behind the game, including boasts that it was to feature 3 layers of parallax scrolling for the Amiga version. It might have been a slightly more obscure magazine like Ace or TGM. Can anyone remember this feature or know what magazine or issue it was in? If I find it, I'll put it online assuming I have the mag or scans of it.

27 June 2008, 15:50	#49
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,436	Xenon 2 is style over gameplay/playability. Just like the Alone in the Dark 5 shit. Atari intended to sue some online mags, which rated the game with 30-70%. Now it looks like they made a back down. @Toni: Thanks for the technical explanation. Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 27 June 2008 at 16:37.

27 June 2008, 17:26	#53
oneshotdead Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: asteroid belt Posts: 273	Galahad/FLT: You don't seem to be pig-headed about X2 like some others here are, so I was wondering if you would deign to explain to me some things... (By the way, I agree that Battle Squadron is a superior shmup overall, but I disagree on the old "style over substance" thing regarding X2. The game does have substance; it just happens to also have a lot of style, thanks to the superior graphics assets. It seems fashionable to dismiss X2 on these forums, but I doubt some of these gamers would have denounced it, back in the day...) Anyway... if you would deign to answer these few points for me, I would be grateful: 1. Do Battle Squadron sprites and backgrounds really have more colours? I think my eyes might be deceiving me. The tonal gradation looks rather... garish. 2. Is there really more going on in Battle Squadron, and how so? 3. Who did code X2. Were they lazy coders who could easily have made it 50 FPS like Toni asserts, or is he perhaps drawing a long bow? 4. How many layers of parallax does BS have? Please excuse my ignorance, Galahad. Last edited by oneshotdead; 27 June 2008 at 17:34. Reason: "diplomaticising" my post a bit more

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27 June 2008, 10:48	#42
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,167	Also I don't think it matters how quick Xenon 2 is, it'd still be rubbish

27 June 2008, 13:29	#44
Galahad/FLT Going nowhere Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: United Kingdom Age: 50 Posts: 8,986	Amiga had 3 levels of paralax and the ST and PC had two, though they did include the stars as a paralax layer.

27 June 2008, 13:36	#45
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	Yeah, we might talk about more enjoyable games. My main problem with Xenon 2 is that they didn't do it right... apart from the scrolling, the collision detection is so bad it's unplayable. To me. It's a basic and vital function in shooters. Also, it's so darn easy to make correct scrolling, just reserve a little larger than visible bitmap - to scroll in X just calc scrollreg value 0-15 and word offs, and draw any newly appearing tiles in the margin. For vertical scrolling, just add to the bitmap pointers and insert a split in the copper. For a footie field, race track etc just make a big bitmap Dunno why some coders used less simple and less efficient routines. Maybe because one has to think about how to scroll the level before you start and sometimes the gfx artist's mouse finger itches? And coder wants to 'get something on screen quickly'. Another reason might be easy (lazy) cross platform ports, I know Bitmap Bros wrote their games so ST versions would be as good as the Amiga versions so they could use the same code. And Graftgold didn't want to use all rastertime because they wanted the games to run in the US, so they went half framerate. And about large bitmaps, I believe Marble Madness does that, but it's written in c. Blood Money might,too. I think each level seems all the bigger for the extreme slowness of the scroll Hybris has 50 fps sprites and Battle Squadron has 25 fps ones (except shots?). The scroll is slow, less than 1px/frame, which means scroll code can be skipped every other frame, and makes it appear as 25 fps. Which is as perfect as it can be, since you can't scroll half a pixel. X-Out and Z-Out are nice I think.

27 June 2008, 13:47	#47
Marcuz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: . Age: 48 Posts: 5,562	i know this is a strictly code fucused discussion, still, imho, as long as code is not poor enough to obstacle the gameplay, it is irrilevant to decide if the game was good or not. for instance, exactly because of the design choices, i think Xenon II was a great game

27 June 2008, 15:39	#48
Minuous Coder/webmaster/gamer Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canberra/Australia Posts: 2,630	Xenon 2 must surely be one of the most overrated games ever.

27 June 2008, 17:11	#50
Marcuz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: . Age: 48 Posts: 5,562	overrated by whom? everybody seems to agree that's a bad game! i still think it's one of the most user-friendly shoot em up ever... with a big design' fault: the necessity of a joystick with autofire to play it without loose the thumbs. a good designer/coder should not require some particular ability from the user to experience his product, at least in such a simple platform

27 June 2008, 17:11	#51
humble worm Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: BP/Poland Age: 45 Posts: 745	I played Battle Squadron 2 times maybe, never to return to the game again while I loved Xenon II. I was unaware of the frame thingies and happy

27 June 2008, 17:45	#54
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,436	I don't think that Xenon 2 has too much substance. It's slow, the enemy formations/wepaons are boring. A tough gameplay generally. Try some late 80s/early 90s console shooter from Compile like Aleste, Spriggan or Gunhed. They aren't very stylish, but they offers pure fun. Just like Hybris or Battle Squadron. Damn it, OT once again.

27 June 2008, 17:47	#55
TCD HOL/FTP busy bee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Age: 46 Posts: 31,525	Xenon 2 is indeed overrated. The title music by Bomb the Bass made more popular than the game would have been without it IMHO. It's not a really bad game either, but there are many better shoot 'em ups on the Amiga. @oneshotdead I'm quite sure that Battle Squadron has more colors on screen and though they could be a bit more decent they look way better than the ones used in Xenon 2. ...and it didn't scroll smoothly

27 June 2008, 17:51	#56
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,436	Especially a lot of Amiga 8bit ports suffers from a bad/jerky scrolling. Has this something to do with the porting process generally?

27 June 2008, 17:57	#57
oneshotdead Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: asteroid belt Posts: 273	Retro-Nerd: I agree on Gunhed, you advised me on that one - but that is PC Engine (way off topic!) TheCyberDruid: The colour use in BS is superior to X2? Don't make me laugh! You have no aesthetic taste - like some of these programmers! Another thing about X2: BIG power-ups. Another reason I doubt the higher framerate would have been possible back then. But I would love to be proved wrong, as I have already in this thread.

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