Scart video for NTSC users

[mark_k]

Set Workbench to an interlaced mode (i.e. PAL high res laced). You should be able to see a picture on your TV then.

Many modern TVs and video capture devices don't work properly with non-interlaced component video. For system-legal software you can use the Lacer command to force interlace on: Lacer 1
Unfortunately that won't help with most games and demos. You'd need to patch each one to enable interlace mode.

[Solo761]

Yup, that worked for WB, but as you said games are no go (or even startup menu on L+R mouse buttons). So all in all no really usefull in this case.

Idea behind using RGB to YUV is to get rid of moving image blur we get when using RGB to HDMI adapter. For those who have TV's that are not so picky as my LG it works fine, better than RGB to HDMI.

Bottom line, don't buy LG 42LW579S (and probably others from LW579S family) if you wan't to tinker with retro stuff. If I knew that three years ago I wouldn't. It works fine with newer devices, Nintendo Gamecube, Wii, Playstation 2... but Amigas... no dice.

Now I'm wondering if this thing would help

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1080P-YPbPr-...item2a3805ac13

But that's kinda overdoing it, converter for converter...

[mark_k]

Yeah. You'd have to try it; that converter might be incompatible with non-interlaced component input just like your TV is.

[dJOS]

Originally Posted by Solo761

I'm starting to get really pissed of at my TV...

I opened my RGB SCART to YUV Component adapter and it IS CSY-2100, just in QED branded case.



big picture


I connected Amiga (this time A600, last time I tried A1200) to it and to TV, I thought maybe I did something wrong the first time I tried. But no, TV just says "invalid format". I even used different RGB to SCART cable, this one I didn't made myself :P.

I tried connecting Gamecube to it and that works. I guess my TV (LG) really dislikes amiga signal... :/

Amiga's use bi-level sync and most AV gear uses tri-level sync. As a result some tv's won't work even via the rgb-YUV converter as it doesn't touch the sync method.

I have a Samsung AV monitor that doesn't like bi-level sync via YUV either. All my other component equipped displays are fine with it.

[ShK]

I also didn't never get any of my the 'RGB SCART to YUV' adapters to work.

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=923860#post923860

[kipper2k]

The YUV converters will only work for the specific format (PAL or NTSC) unless you have a region free TV. I do have a YUV adapter that i bought in my search for the best option. The RGB > Scart is the best followed by the Narmi Svideo on a multi region TV. I have tried the RGB > Scart on the SNES and Dreamcast and it is unbeatable

[dJOS]

Hi Kipper, in Australia and Europe all of our TV's have been 50/60hz compatible since HDTV and component video became standard - it's just North America that seem to be 60hz only.

[Solo761]

Originally Posted by dJOS

Amiga's use bi-level sync and most AV gear uses tri-level sync. As a result some tv's won't work even via the rgb-YUV converter as it doesn't touch the sync method.

I have a Samsung AV monitor that doesn't like bi-level sync via YUV either. All my other component equipped displays are fine with it.

I've read a bit about this bi/tri-level sync issue but I'm not sure what to think of it. They say only rare TV's use tri-level and only for HD. I'm not sure what sync level use Playstation 2, XBox 360 and Playstation 3, I connected all of them via component (with their cables, not via this box) and they all worked. Of older stuff I connected Nintendo Gamecube via this box and it also worked.
Only amiga does something it doesn't like, but as mark_k suggested, when I set workbench to PAL hi res interlaced picture appeared so it's might be that this TV doesn't like 240p/288p video.

Originally Posted by ShK

I also didn't never get any of my the 'RGB SCART to YUV' adapters to work.

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=923860#post923860

I'm starting to think there's no "cure" for this. If TV works with RGB to SCART use it, if it doesn't (like mine doesn't) there's no workaround except RGB to HDMI converter with all it's ups and downs.

I was thinking of buying a second monitor, it's getting kinda cramped with only one . In the end I might buy one with TV capabilities, they have SCART, composite, component and basically everything TV has and use that. Maybe it's RGB SCART will be more compliant with retro inputs .

RGB to HDMI box is great, but motion blurring can get to your nerves .

@kipper2k and dJOS

Yup, all of our TVs do 50 and 60 Hz, for quite some time. While I was in the college I had some small cheapo TV and even that worked with 60 Hz. I had playstation that was chipped so it could run backups and games from other regions, not only PAL. When I put NTSC game PSX outputed NTSC signal and it showed. Picture was noticeably differently stretched and TV made some high frequency buzz/noise . Later when PS2 came some games had choice between 50 Hz and 60 Hz PAL, if I chose 60 Hz the same buzz/noise appeared.

[mark_k]

I think tri-level sync is only used for HD signals, not 480i/576i.


As a proof of concept, I've created an ADF file with the D.O.C. "Demons Are Forever" demo. The disk contains the original demo (which uses non-interlaced mode) and a modified one which uses interlaced mode.

If your TV doesn't accept non-interlaced signals on its component input and you're using an RGB-to-component converter, you should be able to run the interlaced version and get a reasonable-looking picture. I'd be interested to hear if that's successful.

[Solo761]

Yup interlaced mode works. And I see that the menu itself is in interlaced mode as it is shown.



Picture is not perfect, there are some waves, but that's probably because cable itself is not that great, I used regular composite + left/right audio one, not really something shielded, but it's sharp, way sharper than SCART to HDMI picture



This is how demo non interlaced demo looks via SCART to HDMI



Edges are blurred in comparison.

Funny thing, interlaced demo doesn't work all that great via SCART to HDMI, for some reason parts are missing. Booted it few times, just to make sure that there wasn't some error while loading it. Interlaced menu displays fine.




Last week I ordered another SCART to HDMI switch (planned to get one for older consoles like PS2 or Gamecube for use with my small projector, it doesn't have component input and composite is blurrier than SCART to HDMI).
This time I ordered different one, Lenkeng LKV362A. I found it mentioned here and it shouldn't be that bad. We'll see when it arrives.

[mark_k]

Originally Posted by Solo761

Yup interlaced mode works. And I see that the menu itself is in interlaced mode as it is shown.

Yep, I put Lacer 1 as the first command in S/Startup-Sequence.

Originally Posted by Solo761

Funny thing, interlaced demo doesn't work all that great via SCART to HDMI, for some reason parts are missing. Booted it few times, just to make sure that there wasn't some error while loading it. Interlaced menu displays fine.

That's really strange. I wonder whether the SCART-HDMI converter or your TV are responsible.

I took a look at the user manual for your LG TV. Some suggestions for things to try:
- Try reducing the Sharpness setting a bit, so there is less ringing (lighter/white around text in the CLI window). Apparently if expert mode is enabled you can adjust horizontal and vertical sharpness independently.
- When using your SCART-HDMI converter, try enabling "Just Scan" mode. Otherwise both the TV and converter will scale the image.
- Set picture mode to Game, set TruMotion to Off, try disabling Noise Reduction, Super Resolution, MPEG Noise Reduction and Edge Enhancer.


I patched another demo for interlace mode in this thread. That one has two independently scrolling layers, could be a good test of your TV's de-interlacing ability. Do you have any suggestions for other single-file demos/intros which you'd like an interlace-patched version of?

[Solo761]

I fiddled with it some more, it's the converter. When I turn amiga on I see menu for a bit, then lacer kicks in screen goes to black. What actually happens is that converter switches from non-interlaced to interlaced and while it does this there is no picture.

All well and nothing out of ordinary here. But what I've noticed that in some cases it doesn't switch modes when going from non-interlaced to interlaced and vice versa, in these cases I'm getting picture with missing parts. I even got it in both interlaced and non-interlaced versions. I think it's converter's fault. If i disconnect it's power supply and then connect it (to reset it and force mode detection) missing parts go back.

I didn't know about expert mode, I'll have a look into it, it would be reeeeealy funny if there are some advanced settings there to "fix" my scart issues :/, I hope they didn't change how you start it, this is what I found

HOLD the MENU BUTTON. The normal menu will pop up but if you continue holding the menu button for about 5 seconds a 4 digit lock code box will show up.

THE PASSWORD: in the shape of a L (how cute for Lg) enter 8741

Most of these other options are already off (not sure about "Just Scan" mode), I tried turning all image "improvement" options off last week when.

[Solo761]

Week ako Lenkeng LKV362A finally arrived, here's the device



High res PCB


Unfortunately quality is worse than "our old" converter. I guess the guy at http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ didn't try it, he says that LKV362A is good for what it costs, but the one in this thread is better.

As far as workbench goes it's fine, nothing out of ordinary, but also not better than our old acquaintance. What's worse is deinterlace blurring in motion, it's way worse. And I'd even say that it's more laggier. Although that may be TV's fault, maybe image it gets from this one required more processing and that added the lag. When I connected it to my monitor via HDMI to DVI it was cca the same as old converter.

I can't really recommend it though, I tried Soccer Kid and blurring on background while in motion was simply bad. With old one boards on first level were slightly blurred, with this one they were heavily blurred.

It will be good enough for my small LED projector, it's only 800x600 so it scales down HD and full HD pictures, tried playing Gamecube with it and found no problems. But for quality screens no-go.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by dJOS

Hi Kipper, in Australia and Europe all of our TV's have been 50/60hz compatible since HDTV and component video became standard

They've been 50/60hz compatible for a long time before that, around 20 years.

[dJOS]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

They've been 50/60hz compatible for a long time before that, around 20 years.

I meant across the board 50/60hz support, prior to HDTV it was very patchy even within brands.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by dJOS

I meant across the board 50/60hz support, prior to HDTV it was very patchy even within brands.

That wasn't my experience, but I only bought Trinitrons & Flatrons. It's quite possible that cheaper sets did not all support 60hz and/or NTSC.

[dJOS]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

That wasn't my experience, but I only bought Trinitrons & Flatrons. It's quite possible that cheaper sets did not all support 60hz and/or NTSC.

Many Japanese and Euro brands would support 60hz only on select models - I used to sell TV and HiFi in the 90's and Laser disc customers had to be very careful which tv's they bought.

[mr.vince]

Many don't support NTSC. The trick is... RGB (via SCART) never is NTSC. It's PAL neither. It's RGB at 50 or 59.97Hz. NTSC and PAL refer to the color coding via composite connections. Color (chroma) is modulated onto the b/w (luma) channel.

This is why you usually get distorted b/w only.

[Hewitson]

Not necessarily via composite, it applies to S-Video and RF as well.

[Darth_X]

Originally Posted by kipper2k

Hi All,

I just bought myself an RGB to HDMI adapter based on the review below and it is F'ing brilliant!

10/10 for this adapter, using a Pal Amiga and an NTSC TV the display is crystal clear, colours are rich and not washed out, picture is stable and i tried it on 5 TV's some just NTSC and a couple of multiregion TV's and all of them give an excellent picture.

Here is a link to the video i watched that encouraged me to try it. Be warned, video is long and dry.

[ Show youtube player ]

Hehehe.. cool video!