Issues with F29 retaliator?

Turrican_3 · 08 August 2022, 11:57

Hey there,

I'm trying to build a replacement set of working disk for my original boxed F29 Retaliator.

Unfortunately, it seems disk 2 of the SPS set isn't working with the WHDload installer, as it immediately gives a read error message.

I had to use the original disk (the only one that apparently still works) to successfully complete the installation, but I can see it often hangs while reading so I'm not sure my game is fully working as it is when running from HD.

Plus, checking the SPS-originated disk 2 with Xcopy gives an endless list of red numbers, whereas the original does not (but I've purchased it second hand so I can't say for sure whether it has been tampered with or not; first disk isn't working at all so I could only start the installation with the SPS-recreated one); tried a few known good, branded floppies by the way, no differences.

So I'd like to know if anybody else has managed to install F29 using recreated floppies from the SPS distribution.

alexh · 08 August 2022, 12:02

What did you use to write back the IPF to a real disk? Greaseweasel? Kryoflux?

You used SPS release "F-29 Retaliator (1990)(Ocean)[0022].zip"?

Does WHDload install work using WinUAE with the same IPFs and the same version WHDload?

It's a very old installer, maybe it doesn't work with the latest WHDload?

Perhaps the floppy disk you wrote back the image was bad?

Turrican_3 · 08 August 2022, 12:31

Whooops sorry (and thanks for the quick reply!), forgot to add some other info that you're rightfully mentioning here.

Sooo... I'm using a self-made Greaseweazle F1 to write the images, never had any issues before (purchased a games lot where roughly 50% of the floppies had - I think - mould issues so I had to recreate quite a few disks unfortunately)

The SPS release is the one you mentioned

The installer seems to work though when mixing SPS disk1 + my original disk2, so I believe it would be reasonable to assume WHDload version - specifically, The Patcher - is fine for creating the installation.

Haven't tried with WinUAE yet (never used IPFs under emulation, I'd need to investigate a bit) but I did try a few different physical disks to write the image.

alexh · 08 August 2022, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turrican_3

Haven't tried with WinUAE yet (never used IPFs under emulation

Using the SPS files from the EAB FTP server WHDload installs flawlessly using WinUAE. No disk errors.

Perhaps wherever you got your SPS ipf images from they were bad?

Perhaps Greaseweasel cannot write back these disks image? I'll ask over on the GreaseWeazle FB page. There are threads saying F-29 had a slightly different flavour of copylock but I don't know if that is relevant.

dlfrsilver · 08 August 2022, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Using the SPS files from the EAB FTP server WHDload installs flawlessly using WinUAE. No disk errors.

Perhaps wherever you got your SPS ipf images from they were bad?

Perhaps Greaseweasel cannot write back these disks image? I'll ask over on the GreaseWeazle FB page. There are threads saying F-29 had a slightly different flavour of copylock but I don't know if that is relevant.

The problem is the most common : His disk is knackered or dirty and requires a clean up.

It's as simple as that. Writing an IPF over a dirty or faulty disk is useless.

About the whdload installer, keep in mind there are 2 differents versions of F29 retaliator. The SPS 0022 and another one that only exist as unofficial IPF (got it from BarryB).

alexh · 08 August 2022, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

The problem is the most common : His disk is knackered or dirty and requires a clean up. It's as simple as that. Writing an IPF over a dirty or faulty disk is useless.

Maybe. That was among the first things I asked and the OP said he tried multiple known good disks.

The creator of Greaseweazel said

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeirFraser

F-29 uses Rob Northern gap + weak bits protection. It might just be tricky to write back and be slightly sensitive to the drive used. How does it fail?

I would retry with a different disk and possibly a different floppy drive.

Seiya · 08 August 2022, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turrican_3

Hey there,

I'm trying to build a replacement set of working disk for my original boxed F29 Retaliator.

in my opinion your project is useless becuase F-29 Retaliator WHDLoad already exists and fully working.

dlfrsilver · 08 August 2022, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Maybe. That was among the first things I asked and the OP said he tried multiple known good disks.

The creator of Greaseweazel said

I would retry with a different disk and possibly a different floppy drive.

F29 both versions are supported by the SPS tool.

There's nothing more than your usual Copylock serial track.

Turrican_3 · 08 August 2022, 21:08

Hey there, thanks for the replies again.

I got the archive right from the EAB server. Even redownloaded it to keep on the safe side but ended up getting the same results.

Tried many branded floppies, they all format flawlessly (with verify activated) under Xcopy so I'm 99% sure it's a different issue.

Unless dlfrsilver means my greaseweazle *drive* has issues, but then no other floppy created with it should work I suppose.

EDIT oh just noticed the quote from Keir, I'll see what I can do

Galahad/FLT · 08 August 2022, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlfrsilver

F29 both versions are supported by the SPS tool.

There's nothing more than your usual Copylock serial track.

Not so, the Copylock on Retaliator is a special case.

99.99% of Copylocks will show up in X-copy as a red track, Retaliator shows as green, quite clearly the track is different enough for X-copy to not detect it.

A wasted effort as the protection was so poorly implemented into the game however.

Turrican_3 · 08 August 2022, 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seiya

in my opinion your project is useless becuase F-29 Retaliator WHDLoad already exists and fully working.

Not sure I understand what you mean.

I just want to create a working 1:1 physical copy of an original game I own, being able to install it via WHDload is just a nice plus, but it's not a strict requirement per se.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

99.99% of Copylocks will show up in X-copy as a red track, Retaliator shows as green, quite clearly the track is different enough for X-copy to not detect it.

Oh this is very interesting to hear, as my original disk 2 (as I said before) shows up as green indeed, while the recreated one does not!

I had just puy my Greaseweazle inside an old external drive chassis but it's just a few screws, I think I'll try another drive mechanic and see what happens.

TCD · 08 August 2022, 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turrican_3

Unfortunately, it seems disk 2 of the SPS set isn't working with the WHDload installer, as it immediately gives a read error message.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turrican_3

I just want to create a working 1:1 phisycal copy of an original game I own, being able to install it via WHDload is just a nice plus, but it's not a strict requirement per se.

Have you tried the game using the floppies on real hardware then? I can see why people would point out that it's a fruitless exercise to make a WHDLoad install that already exists.

Seiya · 08 August 2022, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turrican_3

Not sure I understand what you mean.

I just want to create a working 1:1 physical copy of an original game I own, being able to install it via WHDload is just a nice plus, but it's not a strict requirement per se.

ok, i understood

Turrican_3 · 09 August 2022, 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCD

Have you tried the game using the floppies on real hardware then?

Yes, and it's not working (hangs at title screen with the fighter)

But that could be a compatibility issue of this specific game, as I'm currently using an A1200 and I've just purchased it a few weeks ago.

Definitely need to investigate more.

Quote:

I can see why people would point out that it's a fruitless exercise to make a WHDLoad install that already exists.

Well as I said the goal was to create a working floppy set.

I don't think it should be assumed that anyone has a WHDload-capable Amiga setup, so I believe what I'm trying to do actually makes sense.

alexh · 09 August 2022, 00:19

Keir Fraser, the developer and creator of Greaseweazel and Flash Floppy is going to have a look when he comes back from holiday next week

Turrican_3 · 09 August 2022, 00:36

Awesome, thanks!

Meanwhile, I'm going to doublecheck everything I can.

Turrican_3 · 09 August 2022, 08:11

Not sure yet, but I think I'm onto something.

Since 1. double-checking also means you shouldn't take anything for granted and 2. the installation of F29 was a bit of a time waster due to issues on disk two (i.e. I had to install disk 1 anyways even if I knew it seemed ok) I chose to go a different route and started with the greaseweazle itself.

To do that I wrote a known working IPF image of a game that I was sure it could run on the A1200 and... you guessed it, it didn't work!

To cut a long story short, I then checked the whole greaseweazle chain starting with the software side, and found out there was a newer release of the tools (1.2, I had 1.1) that I immediately installed.

Wrote the known working IPF again and... you guessed it again, it worked.

Then went to F29 disk 2 and (despite a few slowdowns while imaging, but that happened with the original floppy as well!) the WHDload installer went fine! Plus, the disk shows as green on Xcopy too as expected.

So I believe the issue has been solved.

The only unanswered question remains: is the non updated gw tools really a possible explanation for the behaviour I was experiencing? Please note that I wasn't getting any error while writing images to real floppies (quite the opposite, it always ended with "verification complete" or something like that)

alexh · 09 August 2022, 09:35

I don't suppose you know what version you had previously?

Turrican_3 · 09 August 2022, 10:08

I had 1.1 installed, you must have missed it because I had mentioned this tidbit. :-)

alexh · 09 August 2022, 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turrican_3

I had 1.1 installed, you must have missed it because I had mentioned this tidbit. :-)

(shame)

FYI :

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeirFraser

Nothing in 1.2 should fix this. I think it's probably a fussy disk to write.

Out of curiosity did you use the same disk and same drive to make the working disk?

08 August 2022, 11:57	#1
Turrican_3 C= and Amiga aficionado! Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Italy Posts: 318	Issues with F29 retaliator? Hey there, I'm trying to build a replacement set of working disk for my original boxed F29 Retaliator. Unfortunately, it seems disk 2 of the SPS set isn't working with the WHDload installer, as it immediately gives a read error message. I had to use the original disk (the only one that apparently still works) to successfully complete the installation, but I can see it often hangs while reading so I'm not sure my game is fully working as it is when running from HD. Plus, checking the SPS-originated disk 2 with Xcopy gives an endless list of red numbers, whereas the original does not (but I've purchased it second hand so I can't say for sure whether it has been tampered with or not; first disk isn't working at all so I could only start the installation with the SPS-recreated one); tried a few known good, branded floppies by the way, no differences. So I'd like to know if anybody else has managed to install F29 using recreated floppies from the SPS distribution.

08 August 2022, 12:02	#2
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,354	What did you use to write back the IPF to a real disk? Greaseweasel? Kryoflux? You used SPS release "F-29 Retaliator (1990)(Ocean)[0022].zip"? Does WHDload install work using WinUAE with the same IPFs and the same version WHDload? It's a very old installer, maybe it doesn't work with the latest WHDload? Perhaps the floppy disk you wrote back the image was bad? Last edited by alexh; 08 August 2022 at 12:08.

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08 August 2022, 12:31	#3
Turrican_3 C= and Amiga aficionado! Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Italy Posts: 318	Whooops sorry (and thanks for the quick reply!), forgot to add some other info that you're rightfully mentioning here. Sooo... I'm using a self-made Greaseweazle F1 to write the images, never had any issues before (purchased a games lot where roughly 50% of the floppies had - I think - mould issues so I had to recreate quite a few disks unfortunately) The SPS release is the one you mentioned The installer seems to work though when mixing SPS disk1 + my original disk2, so I believe it would be reasonable to assume WHDload version - specifically, The Patcher - is fine for creating the installation. Haven't tried with WinUAE yet (never used IPFs under emulation, I'd need to investigate a bit) but I did try a few different physical disks to write the image.

08 August 2022, 21:08	#9
Turrican_3 C= and Amiga aficionado! Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Italy Posts: 318	Hey there, thanks for the replies again. I got the archive right from the EAB server. Even redownloaded it to keep on the safe side but ended up getting the same results. Tried many branded floppies, they all format flawlessly (with verify activated) under Xcopy so I'm 99% sure it's a different issue. Unless dlfrsilver means my greaseweazle drive has issues, but then no other floppy created with it should work I suppose. EDIT oh just noticed the quote from Keir, I'll see what I can do

09 August 2022, 00:19	#15
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,354	Keir Fraser, the developer and creator of Greaseweazel and Flash Floppy is going to have a look when he comes back from holiday next week

09 August 2022, 00:36	#16
Turrican_3 C= and Amiga aficionado! Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Italy Posts: 318	Awesome, thanks! Meanwhile, I'm going to doublecheck everything I can.

09 August 2022, 08:11	#17
Turrican_3 C= and Amiga aficionado! Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Italy Posts: 318	Not sure yet, but I think I'm onto something. Since 1. double-checking also means you shouldn't take anything for granted and 2. the installation of F29 was a bit of a time waster due to issues on disk two (i.e. I had to install disk 1 anyways even if I knew it seemed ok) I chose to go a different route and started with the greaseweazle itself. To do that I wrote a known working IPF image of a game that I was sure it could run on the A1200 and... you guessed it, it didn't work! To cut a long story short, I then checked the whole greaseweazle chain starting with the software side, and found out there was a newer release of the tools (1.2, I had 1.1) that I immediately installed. Wrote the known working IPF again and... you guessed it again, it worked. Then went to F29 disk 2 and (despite a few slowdowns while imaging, but that happened with the original floppy as well!) the WHDload installer went fine! Plus, the disk shows as green on Xcopy too as expected. So I believe the issue has been solved. The only unanswered question remains: is the non updated gw tools really a possible explanation for the behaviour I was experiencing? Please note that I wasn't getting any error while writing images to real floppies (quite the opposite, it always ended with "verification complete" or something like that)

09 August 2022, 09:35	#18
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,354	I don't suppose you know what version you had previously?

09 August 2022, 10:08	#19
Turrican_3 C= and Amiga aficionado! Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Italy Posts: 318	I had 1.1 installed, you must have missed it because I had mentioned this tidbit. :-)

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