Vsync does not work anymore with 2.4.0 - Page 2

Clark Kent · 06 May 2012, 10:24

I'll try that. Will that "repair" the sound issue?

Toni Wilen · 06 May 2012, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

I'll try that. Will that "repair" the sound issue?

It should, assuming your custom mode is actually 50Hz, not 51Hz. (I guess it is because it worked on 2.3.3 with (50Hz) option)

winuae.zip also updated, (50) and (60) is back if legacy vsync mode is set. No need to modify config file manually anymore.

Clark Kent · 06 May 2012, 19:40

I need the "Low Latency VSync". With "Legacy VSync" jerking returns.

I tried "gfx_refreshrate=50" (I forgot the "-50"), I'll try again with the latest version b14 soon.

Nevertheless with "Low Latency VSync" scrolling is perfect again (also with 51Hz) but sound is still terrible. If using "Low Latency VSync" PAL is still "60.263932", no idea why. But maybe this is also fixed in b14? I'll try...

Clark Kent · 06 May 2012, 20:27

OK, I tried b14.

Now with "Low latency VSync" game is too fast and scrolling jerking heavily. Sound is good but also too fast.

BUT with "Legacy VSync" and "51Hz" - scrolling is good and sound is good! Wooohoooo!

It's interesting that with "Legacy VSync" and "50Hz" scrolling is jerking but with "51Hz" scrolling is fluid.

"PAL" is showing "51.000000" now. I think it's syncing to that frequency now!? It's interesting as soon as I set "NTSC" "60.000000" is shown but switching back shows "50.000000" (but I still have set "51Hz"). Only switching to "50Hz" and then "NTSC", then "51Hz" and back to "PAL" fixes the display to "51.000000" again...

The only thing I do not understand is why the filter settings always sets "Null filter" instead of "none". I saved the config with none and after switching a little bit it's "Null filter" again. But at least "Horiz. and Vert. size" are still 1x as I set before...

I'll perform further tests and report back soon! Thanx!

Clark Kent · 06 May 2012, 20:51

OK, another test.

With "51Hz" scrolling is near perfect but every some seconds there is a very slight jerking (not as often and as regular with the last beta - most time the scrolling is fluid). Sometimes it take 10 seconders before I notice the first jerking, then after 4 seconds again, then after 1 second then it could be 6 to 8 seconds and so on. I think because "51Hz" is not really exactely "51Hz". Maybe it's "51.000001" or even "50.999999" or similar. I tried a lot when custom frames but I can not nail it down. But I do not know if this is the real problem but I can imagine that it has something to do with this. I have a program to check the real horizontal frequency - I'll have a look what it tells me with the resolution of 352x288. I also experimented with "no buffer", "double buffer" and "triple buffer". "Triple buffer" is the best setting, followed by "double buffer" (almost no difference) but "no buffer" results in very jerking scrolling.

"Low latency VSync" worked very good before - but "Low latency VSync" is totally broken in b14 (too fast, too fast sound, scrolling jerking heavily). Maybe this setting was almost the same as the best setting in 2.3.3 but sound was badly broken in last beta. But after my latest findings maybe "Legacy VSync" with "51Hz" is almost or exactely the same.

So only a half "Wooohooo" for the moment!

But all in all I'm very happy with this version!

EDIT: I'm just watching the same scroller with version 2.3.3 as with 2.4.1b14 - Great Giana Sisters title. I'm noticing the same slight jerking every now and then in 2.3.3 with "VSync" and "(50Hz) PAL" (PAL "50.000000") and "Triple buffering" setting (I didn't notice that before, I'm just watching now very very closely). So I think the 2.4.1b14 setting "Legacy VSync" with "51 Hz" (PAL "51.000000") and "Triple buffering" is at least almost the same. I'm just wondering what triggers this very slight and irregular jerking!?

Toni Wilen · 07 May 2012, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

"Low latency VSync" worked very good before - but "Low latency VSync" is totally broken in b14 (too fast, too fast sound, scrolling jerking heavily).

This can never work 100% on your PC, as I said above, your driver is reporting ~16.6ms (60Hz) delay between vblank pulses which can't be right.
Normal ("legacy") vsync does not care.

Quote:

EDIT: I'm just watching the same scroller with version 2.3.3 as with 2.4.1b14 - Great Giana Sisters title. I'm noticing the same slight jerking every now and then in 2.3.3 with "VSync" and "(50Hz) PAL" (PAL "50.000000") and "Triple buffering" setting (I didn't notice that before, I'm just watching now very very closely). So I think the 2.4.1b14 setting "Legacy VSync" with "51 Hz" (PAL "51.000000") and "Triple buffering" is at least almost the same. I'm just wondering what triggers this very slight and irregular jerking!?

Try something else just to confirm because GGS title jumps randomly in fastest possible CPU modes and it isn't vsync causing it.

EDIT: "None" filter is forced to "null" filter if low latency vsync, scaling modes or a2024/graffiti emulation is enabled.

Clark Kent · 10 May 2012, 07:18

Have you ever considered to implement a real sync to screen option? In NTSC games you won't see any speedup but best scrolling possible. VSync does not really work perfect in most emulators...

Toni Wilen · 11 May 2012, 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Kent

Have you ever considered to implement a real sync to screen option? In NTSC games you won't see any speedup but best scrolling possible. VSync does not really work perfect in most emulators...

What do you mean by "real"? Vsync (in emulators) mean syncing emulated hardware vsync to real hardware vsync = each emulated frame is shown exactly once on physical display device, not more or less.

Clark Kent · 12 May 2012, 10:22

There is a good explanation to this matter here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=421792

By the way: With final release 2.4.1 I get some jerking again with "Legacy VSync" and 51Hz and Triple Buffering. Only slightly more then in beta 14.

Toni Wilen · 12 May 2012, 11:24

WinUAE has always done it "the correct way", any refresh rate is supported in vsync modes. WinUAE won't care how big the difference is, it can smaller or larger.

Note that this adjusts "time compression ratio" between real world and emulated hardware (I think all emulators do it this way if they also support any rates). User sees speed up/down and sound pitch changes, emulated software can't see any difference at all, all timings are still exactly right from emulated world point of view. (for example, you can select 75Hz vsync without causing any compatibility problems)

Latency can vary wildly in "traditional" vsync. Display driver can introduce extra latency (at least if it is 3D driver that does the rendering) because drivers usually may buffer up to 3 extra frames, this can cause sync (and latency) issues because emulator thinks it is waiting for previous frame to flip but display driver is actually waiting for frame that was drawn 2 frames ago.

Low latency mode was introduced to fix this issue. In this mode it is emulator that does the flip and sync manually, not display driver that can lie (It can lie because it thinks it knows better. Unfortunately it does not when it is about emulators.)

--

Do you get _exactly_ same problem if sound is disabled? I'll try to improve this in next beats.

EDIT: "Problem" may be also caused by use of DirectDraw and XP. Lots of things changed between XP and Vista/7 and I don't have any physical XP PCs anymore.

Clark Kent · 12 May 2012, 12:31

After testing some time I came to the conclusion that final 2.4.1 is as good as b14. With settings 51 Hz, Triple Buffering and Legacy VSync. At least it appears to me now.

It is only weird that PAL is now 50.000000 but I set 51Hz.

But you are right - when turning sound off the random jerking is as good as gone. I tried it with Clown-O-Mania and Great Giana Sisters. At least I only saw maybe one jerking in many test sessions without sound, but maybe five or more with sound.

Nevertheless I think the method you use in 2.4.1 is good enough. If it is too much work finding an even better method you should leave it as it is...

Edit: After a restart PAL is now 51.000000. I do not know what triggers that behavior...

Clark Kent · 17 May 2012, 13:44

With version 2.4.2b1 I get no picture at all. Display remains black.

Toni Wilen · 20 May 2012, 17:18

Does 2.4.2b2 work? I did test DirectDraw VSync and it seemed to work fine.

Clark Kent · 23 May 2012, 18:48

2.4.2b2 still does not show any picture on my config. Black screen. It seems to boot disks (I can hear the disk drive sound) but I do not see anything.

CFou! · 23 May 2012, 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Does 2.4.2b2 work? I did test DirectDraw VSync and it seemed to work fine.

here too

Toni Wilen · 23 May 2012, 20:53

http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.zip updated which should fix it.(directdraw + no filter blank screen)

Clark Kent · 24 May 2012, 20:30

Thank you! With this new beta display is ok now!

06 May 2012, 20:51	#25
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	OK, another test. With "51Hz" scrolling is near perfect but every some seconds there is a very slight jerking (not as often and as regular with the last beta - most time the scrolling is fluid). Sometimes it take 10 seconders before I notice the first jerking, then after 4 seconds again, then after 1 second then it could be 6 to 8 seconds and so on. I think because "51Hz" is not really exactely "51Hz". Maybe it's "51.000001" or even "50.999999" or similar. I tried a lot when custom frames but I can not nail it down. But I do not know if this is the real problem but I can imagine that it has something to do with this. I have a program to check the real horizontal frequency - I'll have a look what it tells me with the resolution of 352x288. I also experimented with "no buffer", "double buffer" and "triple buffer". "Triple buffer" is the best setting, followed by "double buffer" (almost no difference) but "no buffer" results in very jerking scrolling. "Low latency VSync" worked very good before - but "Low latency VSync" is totally broken in b14 (too fast, too fast sound, scrolling jerking heavily). Maybe this setting was almost the same as the best setting in 2.3.3 but sound was badly broken in last beta. But after my latest findings maybe "Legacy VSync" with "51Hz" is almost or exactely the same. So only a half "Wooohooo" for the moment! But all in all I'm very happy with this version! EDIT: I'm just watching the same scroller with version 2.3.3 as with 2.4.1b14 - Great Giana Sisters title. I'm noticing the same slight jerking every now and then in 2.3.3 with "VSync" and "(50Hz) PAL" (PAL "50.000000") and "Triple buffering" setting (I didn't notice that before, I'm just watching now very very closely). So I think the 2.4.1b14 setting "Legacy VSync" with "51 Hz" (PAL "51.000000") and "Triple buffering" is at least almost the same. I'm just wondering what triggers this very slight and irregular jerking!? Last edited by Clark Kent; 06 May 2012 at 23:14.

12 May 2012, 11:24	#30
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	WinUAE has always done it "the correct way", any refresh rate is supported in vsync modes. WinUAE won't care how big the difference is, it can smaller or larger. Note that this adjusts "time compression ratio" between real world and emulated hardware (I think all emulators do it this way if they also support any rates). User sees speed up/down and sound pitch changes, emulated software can't see any difference at all, all timings are still exactly right from emulated world point of view. (for example, you can select 75Hz vsync without causing any compatibility problems) Latency can vary wildly in "traditional" vsync. Display driver can introduce extra latency (at least if it is 3D driver that does the rendering) because drivers usually may buffer up to 3 extra frames, this can cause sync (and latency) issues because emulator thinks it is waiting for previous frame to flip but display driver is actually waiting for frame that was drawn 2 frames ago. Low latency mode was introduced to fix this issue. In this mode it is emulator that does the flip and sync manually, not display driver that can lie (It can lie because it thinks it knows better. Unfortunately it does not when it is about emulators.) -- Do you get _exactly_ same problem if sound is disabled? I'll try to improve this in next beats. EDIT: "Problem" may be also caused by use of DirectDraw and XP. Lots of things changed between XP and Vista/7 and I don't have any physical XP PCs anymore. Last edited by Toni Wilen; 12 May 2012 at 12:07.

12 May 2012, 12:31	#31
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	After testing some time I came to the conclusion that final 2.4.1 is as good as b14. With settings 51 Hz, Triple Buffering and Legacy VSync. At least it appears to me now. It is only weird that PAL is now 50.000000 but I set 51Hz. But you are right - when turning sound off the random jerking is as good as gone. I tried it with Clown-O-Mania and Great Giana Sisters. At least I only saw maybe one jerking in many test sessions without sound, but maybe five or more with sound. Nevertheless I think the method you use in 2.4.1 is good enough. If it is too much work finding an even better method you should leave it as it is... Edit: After a restart PAL is now 51.000000. I do not know what triggers that behavior... Last edited by Clark Kent; 12 May 2012 at 14:43.

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06 May 2012, 10:24	#21
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	I'll try that. Will that "repair" the sound issue?

06 May 2012, 19:40	#23
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	I need the "Low Latency VSync". With "Legacy VSync" jerking returns. I tried "gfx_refreshrate=50" (I forgot the "-50"), I'll try again with the latest version b14 soon. Nevertheless with "Low Latency VSync" scrolling is perfect again (also with 51Hz) but sound is still terrible. If using "Low Latency VSync" PAL is still "60.263932", no idea why. But maybe this is also fixed in b14? I'll try...

06 May 2012, 20:27	#24
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	OK, I tried b14. Now with "Low latency VSync" game is too fast and scrolling jerking heavily. Sound is good but also too fast. BUT with "Legacy VSync" and "51Hz" - scrolling is good and sound is good! Wooohoooo! It's interesting that with "Legacy VSync" and "50Hz" scrolling is jerking but with "51Hz" scrolling is fluid. "PAL" is showing "51.000000" now. I think it's syncing to that frequency now!? It's interesting as soon as I set "NTSC" "60.000000" is shown but switching back shows "50.000000" (but I still have set "51Hz"). Only switching to "50Hz" and then "NTSC", then "51Hz" and back to "PAL" fixes the display to "51.000000" again... The only thing I do not understand is why the filter settings always sets "Null filter" instead of "none". I saved the config with none and after switching a little bit it's "Null filter" again. But at least "Horiz. and Vert. size" are still 1x as I set before... I'll perform further tests and report back soon! Thanx!

10 May 2012, 07:18	#27
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	Have you ever considered to implement a real sync to screen option? In NTSC games you won't see any speedup but best scrolling possible. VSync does not really work perfect in most emulators...

12 May 2012, 10:22	#29
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	There is a good explanation to this matter here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=421792 By the way: With final release 2.4.1 I get some jerking again with "Legacy VSync" and 51Hz and Triple Buffering. Only slightly more then in beta 14.

17 May 2012, 13:44	#32
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	With version 2.4.2b1 I get no picture at all. Display remains black.

20 May 2012, 17:18	#33
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	Does 2.4.2b2 work? I did test DirectDraw VSync and it seemed to work fine.

23 May 2012, 18:48	#34
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	2.4.2b2 still does not show any picture on my config. Black screen. It seems to boot disks (I can hear the disk drive sound) but I do not see anything.

23 May 2012, 20:53	#36
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.zip updated which should fix it.(directdraw + no filter blank screen)

24 May 2012, 20:30	#37
Clark Kent Registered User Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Vienna Posts: 133	Thank you! With this new beta display is ok now!

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