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Old 23 January 2013, 10:23   #1
elowan
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FS-UAE mounting PC devices to WB

hello,

is there a config-option, to mount PC drives (hdd, cd-rom) into WB automatically?

And 2nd, what gives abetter performance:

A configuration with .hdf files (for amiga-system harddisk) or "mounted folders"?


Best Regards and keep up the great work on fs-uae
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Old 23 January 2013, 12:36   #2
nexusle
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I think, folders are a little bit faster. But you can get filesystem problems through different characters as Toni Wilen says in another thread. The safest variant is a HDF file.

Last edited by prowler; 29 August 2013 at 23:13. Reason: Rewind.
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Old 23 January 2013, 13:30   #3
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Ok, so safer might be a bit slower - but safer

I´ll stay with .hdf file. Only negative thing i can see, is when installing something in hdf Amiga system that causes a problem (won´t boot or something like that), then recovery might be harder / not possible.

For the folders variant, the "bad-file" can be replaced very easy.
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Old 23 January 2013, 14:54   #4
mr_a500
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On Mac, you can use many characters in filenames that would be "illegal" in Windows (like "\ * ? < >). Some of my Amiga files contain those characters and back when I tried WinUAE it caused some problems, but I haven't run into any on the Mac. So I prefer to use folders because it's faster and easier - and I can also view & modify those individual Amiga files from Mac.

I also like to view and modify Mac files from the Amiga (FS-UAE). This is probably insanely dangerous, but what the hell... I like to live... dangerously.

I set /Volumes/ as a hard drive so I can see any mounted drive from the Amiga. I then can use my favourite Amiga filemanager to copy/move/rename Mac files, and use my favourite Amiga text editor to edit text. Insane, yes... but who can stop me?
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Old 23 January 2013, 14:59   #5
Toni Wilen
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I don't think 100% "illegal" file name support means safer..

Directory filesystem filename/protection flag/comments compatibility depends on implementation, full compatibility needs host-specific handling (every OS has different "illegal" characters and other limits) Always modify file names inside the emulation if it has any kind of weird looking characters!

Directory filesystem is faster and data is much safer than in HDFs: Emulation can't corrupt the drive, can use host OS repair and back up tools (Only FFS has good repair/diagnostics utilities) and so on. Data transfer is also really easy.

IMHO HDFs are only needed in some specific situations, for example need to match real Amiga config, IDE/SCSI emulation, testing Amiga filesystems.
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Old 23 January 2013, 15:09   #6
elowan
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Ah, ok.

So i will use Folders in my Mac and stay with hdf file on Windows.
But i will Backup my hdf from Time to Time or before installing
something critically on it.
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Old 23 January 2013, 15:18   #7
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BTW: is there a Way to convert hdf to folders?

My guess is - no
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Old 23 January 2013, 15:24   #8
Toni Wilen
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Directory filesystem "illegal" characters work fine in WinUAE. You only need to create and edit the files inside emulation. Of course it is not possible to copy them outside of emulation. (I assume FS-UAE also has some kind of "illegal" character support too)

There is also config switch that allows WinUAE to use most illegal characters (It is Windows Shell that hates them, filesystem won't care) but you will get interesting errors if you attempt to access them, for example using Windows Explorer

Quote:
is there a Way to convert hdf to folders
"c:copy hdf: directory: clone all quiet" ?
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Old 23 January 2013, 15:36   #9
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Wooot? So hdf to Directory is possible?

Damm, Never thought that
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Old 23 January 2013, 15:45   #10
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Hmmm, copy all files from Running OS Emulation to a "Directory hdd" - will This work, also?
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Old 23 January 2013, 15:57   #11
mr_a500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Directory filesystem "illegal" characters work fine in WinUAE. You only need to create and edit the files inside emulation. Of course it is not possible to copy them outside of emulation. (I assume FS-UAE also has some kind of "illegal" character support too)

There is also config switch that allows WinUAE to use most illegal characters (It is Windows Shell that hates them, filesystem won't care) but you will get interesting errors if you attempt to access them, for example using Windows Explorer
I remember WinUAE used to replace any "illegal" filename characters with "_uae__" (or something like that). That was good to prevent problems in Windows, but really screwed me up when using again with real Amiga. I had to manually search for and rename all those files.
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Old 23 January 2013, 15:59   #12
Toni Wilen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_a500 View Post
I remember WinUAE used to replace any "illegal" filenames characters with "_uae__" (or something like that). That was good to prevent problems in Windows, but really screwed me up when using again with real Amiga. I had to manually search for and rename all those files.
They appear with original names inside emulation.
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Old 23 January 2013, 16:14   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elowan View Post
Hmmm, copy all files from Running OS Emulation to a "Directory hdd" - will This work, also?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
"c:copy hdf: directory: clone all quiet" ?
That's exactly what the command Toni posted does. Note that 'hdf:' and 'directory:' are just placeholders.
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Old 23 January 2013, 16:28   #14
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Lol - i thought it was Kind of Shell command, but from Windows side

So simple copy all from Emulation side to a directory... sometimes, life is just easy.

Thanks for clarifying, Cyber
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Old 23 January 2013, 19:42   #15
FrodeSolheim
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I agree with earlier posters that directory file system are much more convenient. -And the implementation in FS-UAE is quite good I think:

- It uses a simple name encoding scheme to encode Amiga file names which are illegal on the host system
- Even better, it always encodes file names which are illegal on any of the supported host systems. This means that a directory file system can be moved from an OS X or Linux box to a Windows computer, and back, without loss of data or complications.
- It handles the "problem" with case sensitive file names on Linux and other systems with case sensitive file names.

So there's no need to use HDF's on Windows for example. All valid Amiga file names will work no matter the host operating system.

The directory file system support in FS-UAE has one glaring omission though. It currently does not support file attributes/timestamps/comments. All files get default permissions and metadata. This is planned, but have not been implemented yet, partly because no-one has complained yet

So if you have a system partition and want to keep the file metadata, you should hold on to the original file system until FS-UAE fully supports attributes/timestamps/comments, and copy the files then. I will prioritize the work higher if I know someone's waiting for the feature

The plan is to neither use the original UAEDB mechanism, nor WinUAE's NTFS metadata system (at least I believe WinUAE can save metadata in extra NTFS file streams, or what it's called), but use a system where attributes for a file is saved in a separate "sidecar file". For example: image.jpg and image.jpg.uaeattr (or something). This approach will have several advantages:

- It will be possible/easy to merge / split up directory content on the host side without destroying file metadata
- You can send / copy individual files with metadata from the host computer to another computer (or person) by also including the .uaeattr files
- An easy to understand implementation, and a single corrupt metadata file (due to bug or whatever reason) will only affect attributes for one file, not an entire directory.
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Old 23 January 2013, 19:50   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim View Post
"sidecar file".
I planned something like this long time ago but I rejected it because it has one huge disadvantage, you get double the files in worst case and it gets really ugly and messy to browse the directory outside of emulation. (It is not rare to have directory full of files with special flag combinations or comments)
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Old 23 January 2013, 20:04   #17
elowan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid View Post
That's exactly what the command Toni posted does. Note that 'hdf:' and 'directory:' are just placeholders.
hmmm, seems it get you wrong:

In AmigaOS, i open a shell on Workbench, type in "copy #? to DH1:" (DH1 is the PC-directory) and confirm this operation.

The shell lists all files are copied.. but not the whole AmigaSystem harddisk is in the PC-folder, just a few files...

What is wrong here?!
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Old 23 January 2013, 20:07   #18
nexusle
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If you open a shell, it could be your current path is RAM:

Type "cd SYS:" before your copy command
or type "copy SYS: DH1: all"

What's these files copied?! T, ENV, and Clipboards?

Last edited by prowler; 29 August 2013 at 23:15. Reason: Rewind.
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Old 23 January 2013, 20:09   #19
FrodeSolheim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
I planned something like this long time ago but I rejected it because it has one huge disadvantage, you get double the files in worst case and it gets really ugly and messy to browse the directory outside of emulation. (It is not rare to have directory full of files with special flag combinations or comments)
I realize that it may be somewhat controversial, but that disadvantage must of course be weighed against the advantages.

And it would make sense to make this optional. When mr_a500 mounts /Volumes/, it will make sense to have this feature turned off, so not to needlessly pollute the host file system with metadata files (whether it's sidecar files or UAEDB files).

But for the "System" or "Workbench" volume, you might want to have this feature enabled. The disadvantage there may not be that great, because this volume will likely be accessed / browsed mostly on the Amiga, where these files will be invisible. -And if you do browse the volume on the host side, everything will work fine, just with the extra files. - And you can for example conveniently attach both a file and the .uaeattr file in an email on the host side, to send a "complete" file with metadata without needing to LHA it on the Amiga side first.
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Old 23 January 2013, 20:28   #20
mr_a500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrodeSolheim View Post
But for the "System" or "Workbench" volume, you might want to have this feature enabled. The disadvantage there may not be that great, because this volume will likely be accessed / browsed mostly on the Amiga, where these files will be invisible.
I don't see how those files would be invisible on the Amiga - unless you're talking about emulated Amiga (if you program FS-UAE not to show them) - but then transferring back to real Amiga, those files would be visible.
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