TFT/LCD Monitors & 2D games 60FPS/ 120HZ

ST Dragon · 11 March 2005, 11:38

I want to buy a TFT monitor.

I’ll be using it mainly for games, 3D PC games & 2D emulators.

At the moment I’m using a 17” EIZO CRT F55S.

When I play 2D Emu games, MAME, NEOGEO, Capcom, SNES, genesis, etc…which are at 60FPS, I have to set the display at 120HZ or else the video will appear dithering & there will be jerky, tearing effects in horizontal scrolling. (Example: the Intro in Super Contra III, the horizontal scrolling letters “Alien Wars” are jerky at 75HZ)

But at 120HZ everything is smooth.

I noticed that most TFT monitor’s refresh rate don’t go over 75HZ so is there going to be dithering & tearing in the video display when I play games in MAME & other 2D games at 60FPS?

Also the response time in TFTs is considerably larger than CRT monitors (12-25ms)

Will that also degrade 2D & 3D gaming experience?

How about this:

EIZO 17'' L550

http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l550/index.asp#

Specs:

http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l550/spec.asp

I found this at a shop for 399 Euros / 534$ is this price ok?

Or this:

EIZO 17'' L551

http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l551/index.asp#

Specs:

http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l557/spec.asp

Thanks in advance.

wlcina · 11 March 2005, 11:43

you should apply "Wait for vertical sync", and those jerkies and stutterings should be corrected.

alexh · 11 March 2005, 12:45

Most LCD / TFT monitors can have a 60Hz refresh rate. There are even one or two that can sync as low as 50Hz refresh.

I'd recommend looking for the latter if you intend to use an Amiga.

Adding "wait for vsync" will eliminate tearing but it will *NOT* get rid of the jerkyness. The only way is an exact multiple of the original frame rate.

ST Dragon · 11 March 2005, 13:11

I always use vsync at 120HZ and everything is fine on my CRT
But when I use vsync & 75HZ, display is not smooth on my CRT.

I want to know if it will be the same for the TFT as I've read 75HZ on TFT is "different" than CRT. How a can not define though...

alexh · 11 March 2005, 13:26

It will still be jerky. but you can try to see if it will operate at 60Hz.

ST Dragon · 11 March 2005, 14:01

Is 60HZ on a TFT as tiring as on CRT?
I can’t stand 60HZ on my CRT, gives me headaches…

wlcina · 11 March 2005, 14:10

no, TFT is better in this case, you will NOT notice any flickering. because white light on TFT is stable and lights whole area (its not ray as in CRT)

Firthy2002 · 11 March 2005, 14:11

You want to be running at the highest refresh possible for health reasons.

Marcuz · 11 March 2005, 14:30

i read that tft are not that good for 3d games, ghost effect and such, but that comes from geek/tech forums; you says that you already used them, how are they in real use? have someone tryed the apple ones especially? how they are in games not so frenzy as morrowind for instance?

wlcina · 11 March 2005, 14:35

I played UT2004 on my samsung 19" tft (20 ms) without any probs, its true that you see ghost or "noise" but its not so high problem :-)

alexh · 11 March 2005, 14:36

Quote:

You want to be running at the highest refresh possible for health reasons.

Yeah right... NOT.

Quote:

i read that tft are not that good for 3d games

Some TFT's are not that good for ANY game 3D or otherwise... or movies... basically anything with motion. The TFT has a relatively high persistance. However you can get one that is 16ms or lower and do your homework before buying and get something that is more than acceptable.

11 March 2005, 14:48

Are desktop TFTs like laptop ones? Made for a specific resolution, sucky with others. My Toshiba laptop doesn't display anything else than 1024x768 as sharp probably because of physical reasons (number of pixels). It also doesn't display colors as accurately as a CRT monitor. If that's the case with other TFT monitors then it's safe to say that TFTs are useless for graphic work. One thing I like is that low refresh rate isn't unhealthy with TFTs as opposed to CRTs.

Firthy2002 · 11 March 2005, 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Yeah right... NOT.

Low refresh rates can cause eye strain and headaches.

60Hz is the recommended minimum.

tin · 11 March 2005, 15:18

but not on TFTs!!!

alexh · 11 March 2005, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by pxscroll

Are desktop TFTs like laptop ones? Made for a specific resolution, sucky with others.

Yes. All TFT's have a native resolution. Above or below that resolution the panel scales the data up or down using a filter. The quality of the filter varies from panel to panel but it is usually comparable to bilinear filtering i.e. makes things look smudged.

Quote:

One thing I like is that low refresh rate isn't unhealthy with TFTs as opposed to CRTs.

I think unhealthy is the wrong word.

Quote:

Low refresh rates can cause eye strain and headaches. 60Hz is the recommended minimum.

Televisions are 25 / 50Hz (PAL) and people watch them for a lot longer than they do a monitor. It's all context based i.e. what is being displayed.

You have to be sensitive to frequencies to get headaches from screen refresh, you'd be amazed how many people CANNOT see the flicker of a 60Hz CRT screen.

wlcina · 11 March 2005, 16:17

I cannot see 85Hz! I got headache, I can determine if crt is running with 100 or 120 hz, 120hz is minimum for me :-/

ST Dragon · 13 March 2005, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

Most LCD / TFT monitors can have a 60Hz refresh rate. There are even one or two that can sync as low as 50Hz refresh.

I'd recommend looking for the latter if you intend to use an Amiga.

Adding "wait for vsync" will eliminate tearing but it will *NOT* get rid of the jerkyness. The only way is an exact multiple of the original frame rate.

What's the "latter"?

If every TFT is fixed for a native resolution, then they will suck for 2D games & Emus!

I've read this at another forum:

Quote:

The big thing that makes LCDs somewhat unsuitable for 2d games is the fact that they can only run in one resolution. So unless the game you're playing runs in the same res as your monitor's native resolution, you're going to get nasty scaling effects. These bother some people more than others, but personally I can't stand them. If you're emulating, you're pretty much going to be okay as long as you can scale the image to an integer multiple of the original resolution, but you likely won't get a fullscreen display that way. Also keep in mind that scaling the image is going to be slow compared to running a game at its native res. On my machine, for example, Psikyo games start dropping frames if I scale them more than 2x.

One feature I would like in a TFT monitor, is being able to to tilt the screen 90 degrees verticaly.
I would like to play Ikaruga vertical & some other shmups in Mame without having to strecth the display.

Which one can?
Thanks.

13 March 2005, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexh

I think unhealthy is the wrong word.

I meant that TFTs are OK. (not unhealthy)

wlcina · 14 March 2005, 07:47

Dragon try Samsung 193P, this is very good model, look at specs http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/n...Specifications

You can rotate it 90 (you will get portret format) or 180

Important specs:

Brightness 250 cd/m2 Contrast Ratio 1000:1 Viewing Angle (H/V) 178/178 Response Time (ms) 20

IFW · 14 March 2005, 11:04

...and vertical refresh rate is 56-75hz.
You don't want it for amiga emulation.
The only option right now is a model with 50hz as 100hz ones do not exist.

11 March 2005, 11:38	#1
ST Dragon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: home Posts: 171	TFT/LCD Monitors & 2D games 60FPS/ 120HZ I want to buy a TFT monitor. I’ll be using it mainly for games, 3D PC games & 2D emulators. At the moment I’m using a 17” EIZO CRT F55S. When I play 2D Emu games, MAME, NEOGEO, Capcom, SNES, genesis, etc…which are at 60FPS, I have to set the display at 120HZ or else the video will appear dithering & there will be jerky, tearing effects in horizontal scrolling. (Example: the Intro in Super Contra III, the horizontal scrolling letters “Alien Wars” are jerky at 75HZ) But at 120HZ everything is smooth. I noticed that most TFT monitor’s refresh rate don’t go over 75HZ so is there going to be dithering & tearing in the video display when I play games in MAME & other 2D games at 60FPS? Also the response time in TFTs is considerably larger than CRT monitors (12-25ms) Will that also degrade 2D & 3D gaming experience? How about this: EIZO 17'' L550 http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l550/index.asp# Specs: http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l550/spec.asp I found this at a shop for 399 Euros / 534$ is this price ok? Or this: EIZO 17'' L551 http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l551/index.asp# Specs: http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l557/spec.asp Thanks in advance.

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11 March 2005, 11:43	#2
wlcina Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Czech republic Posts: 580	you should apply "Wait for vertical sync", and those jerkies and stutterings should be corrected.

11 March 2005, 12:45	#3
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,331	Most LCD / TFT monitors can have a 60Hz refresh rate. There are even one or two that can sync as low as 50Hz refresh. I'd recommend looking for the latter if you intend to use an Amiga. Adding "wait for vsync" will eliminate tearing but it will NOT get rid of the jerkyness. The only way is an exact multiple of the original frame rate.

11 March 2005, 13:11	#4
ST Dragon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: home Posts: 171	I always use vsync at 120HZ and everything is fine on my CRT But when I use vsync & 75HZ, display is not smooth on my CRT. I want to know if it will be the same for the TFT as I've read 75HZ on TFT is "different" than CRT. How a can not define though...

11 March 2005, 13:26	#5
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,331	It will still be jerky. but you can try to see if it will operate at 60Hz.

11 March 2005, 14:01	#6
ST Dragon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: home Posts: 171	Is 60HZ on a TFT as tiring as on CRT? I can’t stand 60HZ on my CRT, gives me headaches…

11 March 2005, 14:10	#7
wlcina Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Czech republic Posts: 580	no, TFT is better in this case, you will NOT notice any flickering. because white light on TFT is stable and lights whole area (its not ray as in CRT)

11 March 2005, 14:11	#8
Firthy2002 2nd era... Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Leeds, England Age: 40 Posts: 288	You want to be running at the highest refresh possible for health reasons.

11 March 2005, 14:30	#9
Marcuz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: . Age: 48 Posts: 5,562	i read that tft are not that good for 3d games, ghost effect and such, but that comes from geek/tech forums; you says that you already used them, how are they in real use? have someone tryed the apple ones especially? how they are in games not so frenzy as morrowind for instance?

11 March 2005, 14:35	#10
wlcina Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Czech republic Posts: 580	I played UT2004 on my samsung 19" tft (20 ms) without any probs, its true that you see ghost or "noise" but its not so high problem :-)

11 March 2005, 14:48	#12
oldpx Posts: n/a	Are desktop TFTs like laptop ones? Made for a specific resolution, sucky with others. My Toshiba laptop doesn't display anything else than 1024x768 as sharp probably because of physical reasons (number of pixels). It also doesn't display colors as accurately as a CRT monitor. If that's the case with other TFT monitors then it's safe to say that TFTs are useless for graphic work. One thing I like is that low refresh rate isn't unhealthy with TFTs as opposed to CRTs.

11 March 2005, 15:18	#14
tin Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: chester Posts: 415	but not on TFTs!!!

11 March 2005, 16:17	#16
wlcina Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Czech republic Posts: 580	I cannot see 85Hz! I got headache, I can determine if crt is running with 100 or 120 hz, 120hz is minimum for me :-/

14 March 2005, 07:47	#19
wlcina Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Czech republic Posts: 580	Dragon try Samsung 193P, this is very good model, look at specs http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/n...Specifications You can rotate it 90 (you will get portret format) or 180 Important specs: Brightness 250 cd/m2 Contrast Ratio 1000:1 Viewing Angle (H/V) 178/178 Response Time (ms) 20

14 March 2005, 11:04	#20
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	...and vertical refresh rate is 56-75hz. You don't want it for amiga emulation. The only option right now is a model with 50hz as 100hz ones do not exist.

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