TOSEC dat for files to delete

Big-Byte · 09 March 2003, 20:57

This is a firm attempt to identify [a]lt versions of games that are in tosec but shouldnt be because the differences between the alt and the 'master' are negligible...

the eventual aim is that files identified as 'useless alts' will eventually be put in their own dat so you can sort out your collections and delete them..

So first up starting in the 0-A section of Tosec Games 0.24 we have..

Master adf...
1st division Manager (1992)(Codemasters)[cr Nemesis].adf

ALL the alts (a,a2,a3,a4 and a5) should be removed because all the physical files on the alt disks match the files on the master disk exactly (CRC checked) only CRC differences are in the unused area of the disks.

[idoru] · 10 March 2003, 15:36

I haven't privately spoken to Big-Byte and hope he won't mind me saying this in public...apologies in advance and an invitation to slap me if you do

My opinion is that this is definitely a worthwhile task if only to find out the reason an alt is an alt...something I certainly don't have time to do but have wanted to do for a long time (amongst a myriad of other things).

If you (Big-Byte) wish then as it progresses I can find a way to add it into the TOSEC dat releases ("officialise" it if you will), just let me know. If not, then that's equally fine & I wish you the best of luck and will be looking on in interest

Big-Byte · 10 March 2003, 17:37

Ta

- but for everyone else - I need help. Its a big task and I only had time to look at the ones I did last week because I was at home ill so dont expect rapid progress...

BippyM · 10 March 2003, 17:54

Be on #abime.net later (About 8ish) and I'll chat to you about it.. and maybe help out

Kodoichi · 10 March 2003, 18:50

You only consider an [a] to be deleted if it's really kind of a 1:1 copy of another one, right?

Because I'm still submitting alternative versions to Tosec that, for example, have another WB-setup (different colours in CLI etc.)… which is a different version for me.

Big-Byte · 10 March 2003, 21:33

Yep, if the essential game files are exactly the same (CRC checked) between disks and only have minor differences in other areas of the disks then it can be deleted.

Next one up is a good example.....

4D Sports Boxing (1991)(Mindscape)[cr CSL][a](Disk 1 of 2).adf

can be deleted because only difference between it and '4D Sports boxing (1991)(mindscape)[cr CSL](Disk 1 of 2).adf' is that it has two extra files on the disk: execute and NewCLI (which are not used) plus the .info has a different crc.

Feltzkrone · 27 March 2003, 02:32

Very good! Looks like you now do the stuff for TOSEC which I wanted to do some months ago (remember, Idoru?

)

Hell, THIS is the way how to motivate me to continue ADFRen!

Big-Byte · 27 March 2003, 10:18

Im also currently in the middle of writing a hex/ asci viewer for adfs (It works for any files though) and am just starting the compare function.

When Ive got it working I will send you the source code if you want to integrate / replicate it in your adf program.

What we need is a program where you specify a master adf and a set of alternates and it goes through the files on the alternates and lists why they are different from the master.

ie..

Master adf.. Somegame.adf

Alternates.. Somegame[a].adf
Somegame[a1].adf

Report...

Somegame[a].adf
file '.info' has a different crc value
has extra file 'readme.txt'
is missing file 'addbuffers'

Somegame[a1].adf
etc...

So we can quickly tell whats different between lots of disks.

Anyway, my program so far....

[idoru] · 28 March 2003, 18:45

Very good stuff & very worthwhile.

I'll just say keep up the good work and thanks

Cos I have zero chance of finding time to work on this sort of thing

Overdoc · 29 March 2003, 01:45

Yes, this is very good and important work !!
I think in the end every crack of every game should just be entered 1 time in TOSEC, but every [a] or [b] version should still be stored in the database to identify them when someone wants to scan his own disk collection.

Nevertheless, while this works great with dos disks, it will not be that easy to decide between the 'original' crack and [a] versions on ndos disk !

I think the best way to overcome this problem would be to contact former crackers or people who got the stuff directly from bbs where crackers uploaded the stuff, so you can be sure it hasn't been altered before in any way

@Big-Byte:

Do you think you could convert your 'compare & tell the difference' program also for C64 .d64 images ? That would be something I have been waiting for years !! Would be absolutely great, because with .d64 files the [a]-versions problem is even bigger because filecopying was very common on the C64....

Big-Byte · 29 March 2003, 08:53

My program should work for and will accept any file.
Im trying to get it so that if any bytes in the file on the right hand of the screen are different to the left hand side then they will show up in red.

Id like to point out that Im learning Delphi as I go along and may need some help at some stage.. If anyone wants the source I can provie what Ive done so far - any comments welcome.

Overdoc · 30 March 2003, 03:47

Ok, so I assume files have to be already extracted into 2 folders, right ?
So your program cannot 'look' into an ADF's filesystem and check out the files with another ADF's directory ? But I think this shouldn't be any problem because I am sure some tools exist to export Amiga files on an ADF to a PC folder.

What would really be great would be when first only the different files show up in another colour, and then you can click on them or move to them by cursor and 'enter' the file to see which bytes exactly are different. Also there could be a button 'delete', which I can click and then the program asks me a Y/N question for all files that are NOT different in any way.

I know this sounds so easy when I talk about it, but I know it is fucking difficult to program such a tool ! I think it is an awesome project you are doing !!!

Adderly · 13 November 2005, 16:45

Is this project still in work or dead?

I got the latest TOSEC dat's an scanned my amiga stuff for the first time and guess what, a lot of [a] files... That sucks. I really like to see your project or the ADFren one life and kicking, but i guess i need to life with those nasty [a] files. :-((((

Mnemesi · 13 November 2005, 16:53

I can tell you this. There's two early versions of Vektor Storm, one that loads up to a workbench screen where you can click on the Vektor Storm icon, and one where it just loads up automatically in the TOSEC. The workbench one is actually one I made /from/ the autoloading one - I discovered that the game basically could be HD installed, so that was an experiment to test it. I guess my ADF of it wandered out into the larger community when I converted my collection over.

andreas · 13 November 2005, 19:42

Guys, I'm against this (sub-)project.
Alts are NOT always useless.
If I took the time, I could figure out some cases where the [a] version works and the non-[a] version does not, or at least works awhile, then crashes at a certain level.

Please note everyone that "non-[a]" means "first version to enter TOSEC" and [a] means "second version to enter TOSEC".
But what if this second version is better or even 100% unlike the first version, which, on its part, was not played thru nor checked for errors when it entered TOSEC?

Marcuz · 13 November 2005, 20:00

i'm with Andreas, i have experienced the thing he says during the years.

Adderly · 14 November 2005, 06:41

You are right, maybe some [a]'s are usefull. But why not add a flag to tosec (or another project) to identify all those games who write the savegames on their disk or the highscore etc.? I like the ADFren project from Feltzkrone who wanted to identify those games.

Also, with dos disk you can easily find out if the files on the disks are the same for the [a] versions and (after crc checking/playing etc. of course!) those can be deleted, keeping one "master" disk plus adding the [a]'s to a dat. What i have in mind is to keep the scene original DMS releases as masters and drop all those disks who are altered by validating/saving games/highscores/viruses.....

@andreas
I know from another thread that you worked with some [a]'s and [b]'s and got them run. Is there a possibility to get those disks from you? Your zone uploads are gone for some time now - bad for users like me who are new here

I have a dream of metainfo for each adf's added like id-3-tags in mp3's.
Also Feltzkrone's idea to change the (Disk x of y) to a short (Dx-y) is very good.

Damn good ideas from old, dusty

threads....

[idoru] · 14 November 2005, 14:47

Yeah, old threads, old ideas, still valid...no people/interest & no time...usual story

Adderly · 15 November 2005, 09:17

where should i go then with my newly re-found enthusiastic amiga-scene-eab-tosec-whatever enhancement feeling?

Damn, i'm disappointed seeing all those great ideas going nowhere...too bad
*sighs*

[idoru] · 15 November 2005, 15:50

By all means you can rename some adf's or check through already included alt files & let me have correction/addition details and I'll update the dats as and when. If there's anything you want to help with, just say & I can let you know the easiest way of passing over information etc. Anything like that is always a great help

09 March 2003, 20:57	#1
Big-Byte Long time member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: UK Posts: 754	TOSEC dat for files to delete This is a firm attempt to identify [a]lt versions of games that are in tosec but shouldnt be because the differences between the alt and the 'master' are negligible... the eventual aim is that files identified as 'useless alts' will eventually be put in their own dat so you can sort out your collections and delete them.. So first up starting in the 0-A section of Tosec Games 0.24 we have.. Master adf... 1st division Manager (1992)(Codemasters)[cr Nemesis].adf ALL the alts (a,a2,a3,a4 and a5) should be removed because all the physical files on the alt disks match the files on the master disk exactly (CRC checked) only CRC differences are in the unused area of the disks.

27 March 2003, 10:18	#8
Big-Byte Long time member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: UK Posts: 754	Im also currently in the middle of writing a hex/ asci viewer for adfs (It works for any files though) and am just starting the compare function. When Ive got it working I will send you the source code if you want to integrate / replicate it in your adf program. What we need is a program where you specify a master adf and a set of alternates and it goes through the files on the alternates and lists why they are different from the master. ie.. Master adf.. Somegame.adf Alternates.. Somegame[a].adf Somegame[a1].adf Report... Somegame[a].adf file '.info' has a different crc value has extra file 'readme.txt' is missing file 'addbuffers' Somegame[a1].adf etc... So we can quickly tell whats different between lots of disks. Anyway, my program so far.... Attached Thumbnails

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10 March 2003, 15:36	#2
[idoru] Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: UK Posts: 246	I haven't privately spoken to Big-Byte and hope he won't mind me saying this in public...apologies in advance and an invitation to slap me if you do My opinion is that this is definitely a worthwhile task if only to find out the reason an alt is an alt...something I certainly don't have time to do but have wanted to do for a long time (amongst a myriad of other things). If you (Big-Byte) wish then as it progresses I can find a way to add it into the TOSEC dat releases ("officialise" it if you will), just let me know. If not, then that's equally fine & I wish you the best of luck and will be looking on in interest

10 March 2003, 17:37	#3
Big-Byte Long time member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: UK Posts: 754	Ta - but for everyone else - I need help. Its a big task and I only had time to look at the ones I did last week because I was at home ill so dont expect rapid progress...

10 March 2003, 17:54	#4
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	Be on #abime.net later (About 8ish) and I'll chat to you about it.. and maybe help out

10 March 2003, 18:50	#5
Kodoichi Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: I'm the smiling face on your TV, I exploit you still you love me Posts: 515	You only consider an [a] to be deleted if it's really kind of a 1:1 copy of another one, right? Because I'm still submitting alternative versions to Tosec that, for example, have another WB-setup (different colours in CLI etc.)… which is a different version for me.

10 March 2003, 21:33	#6
Big-Byte Long time member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: UK Posts: 754	Yep, if the essential game files are exactly the same (CRC checked) between disks and only have minor differences in other areas of the disks then it can be deleted. Next one up is a good example..... 4D Sports Boxing (1991)(Mindscape)[cr CSL][a](Disk 1 of 2).adf can be deleted because only difference between it and '4D Sports boxing (1991)(mindscape)[cr CSL](Disk 1 of 2).adf' is that it has two extra files on the disk: execute and NewCLI (which are not used) plus the .info has a different crc.

27 March 2003, 02:32	#7
Feltzkrone Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 103	Very good! Looks like you now do the stuff for TOSEC which I wanted to do some months ago (remember, Idoru? ) Hell, THIS is the way how to motivate me to continue ADFRen!

28 March 2003, 18:45	#9
[idoru] Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: UK Posts: 246	Very good stuff & very worthwhile. I'll just say keep up the good work and thanks Cos I have zero chance of finding time to work on this sort of thing

29 March 2003, 01:45	#10
Overdoc Commodore Collector Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austria Age: 53 Posts: 944	Yes, this is very good and important work !! I think in the end every crack of every game should just be entered 1 time in TOSEC, but every [a] or [b] version should still be stored in the database to identify them when someone wants to scan his own disk collection. Nevertheless, while this works great with dos disks, it will not be that easy to decide between the 'original' crack and [a] versions on ndos disk ! I think the best way to overcome this problem would be to contact former crackers or people who got the stuff directly from bbs where crackers uploaded the stuff, so you can be sure it hasn't been altered before in any way @Big-Byte: Do you think you could convert your 'compare & tell the difference' program also for C64 .d64 images ? That would be something I have been waiting for years !! Would be absolutely great, because with .d64 files the [a]-versions problem is even bigger because filecopying was very common on the C64....

29 March 2003, 08:53	#11
Big-Byte Long time member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: UK Posts: 754	My program should work for and will accept any file. Im trying to get it so that if any bytes in the file on the right hand of the screen are different to the left hand side then they will show up in red. Id like to point out that Im learning Delphi as I go along and may need some help at some stage.. If anyone wants the source I can provie what Ive done so far - any comments welcome.

30 March 2003, 03:47	#12
Overdoc Commodore Collector Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Austria Age: 53 Posts: 944	Ok, so I assume files have to be already extracted into 2 folders, right ? So your program cannot 'look' into an ADF's filesystem and check out the files with another ADF's directory ? But I think this shouldn't be any problem because I am sure some tools exist to export Amiga files on an ADF to a PC folder. What would really be great would be when first only the different files show up in another colour, and then you can click on them or move to them by cursor and 'enter' the file to see which bytes exactly are different. Also there could be a button 'delete', which I can click and then the program asks me a Y/N question for all files that are NOT different in any way. I know this sounds so easy when I talk about it, but I know it is fucking difficult to program such a tool ! I think it is an awesome project you are doing !!!

13 November 2005, 16:45	#13
Adderly [Satan^God] Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 701	Is this project still in work or dead? I got the latest TOSEC dat's an scanned my amiga stuff for the first time and guess what, a lot of [a] files... That sucks. I really like to see your project or the ADFren one life and kicking, but i guess i need to life with those nasty [a] files. :-((((

13 November 2005, 16:53	#14
Mnemesi Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: North America Age: 55 Posts: 58	I can tell you this. There's two early versions of Vektor Storm, one that loads up to a workbench screen where you can click on the Vektor Storm icon, and one where it just loads up automatically in the TOSEC. The workbench one is actually one I made /from/ the autoloading one - I discovered that the game basically could be HD installed, so that was an experiment to test it. I guess my ADF of it wandered out into the larger community when I converted my collection over.

13 November 2005, 19:42	#15
andreas Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Germany Age: 50 Posts: 5,857	Guys, I'm against this (sub-)project. Alts are NOT always useless. If I took the time, I could figure out some cases where the [a] version works and the non-[a] version does not, or at least works awhile, then crashes at a certain level. Please note everyone that "non-[a]" means "first version to enter TOSEC" and [a] means "second version to enter TOSEC". But what if this second version is better or even 100% unlike the first version, which, on its part, was not played thru nor checked for errors when it entered TOSEC?

13 November 2005, 20:00	#16
Marcuz Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: . Age: 48 Posts: 5,562	i'm with Andreas, i have experienced the thing he says during the years.

14 November 2005, 06:41	#17
Adderly [Satan^God] Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 701	You are right, maybe some [a]'s are usefull. But why not add a flag to tosec (or another project) to identify all those games who write the savegames on their disk or the highscore etc.? I like the ADFren project from Feltzkrone who wanted to identify those games. Also, with dos disk you can easily find out if the files on the disks are the same for the [a] versions and (after crc checking/playing etc. of course!) those can be deleted, keeping one "master" disk plus adding the [a]'s to a dat. What i have in mind is to keep the scene original DMS releases as masters and drop all those disks who are altered by validating/saving games/highscores/viruses..... @andreas I know from another thread that you worked with some [a]'s and [b]'s and got them run. Is there a possibility to get those disks from you? Your zone uploads are gone for some time now - bad for users like me who are new here I have a dream of metainfo for each adf's added like id-3-tags in mp3's. Also Feltzkrone's idea to change the (Disk x of y) to a short (Dx-y) is very good. Damn good ideas from old, dusty threads....

14 November 2005, 14:47	#18
[idoru] Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: UK Posts: 246	Yeah, old threads, old ideas, still valid...no people/interest & no time...usual story

15 November 2005, 09:17	#19
Adderly [Satan^God] Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 701	where should i go then with my newly re-found enthusiastic amiga-scene-eab-tosec-whatever enhancement feeling? Damn, i'm disappointed seeing all those great ideas going nowhere...too bad sighs

15 November 2005, 15:50	#20
[idoru] Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: UK Posts: 246	By all means you can rename some adf's or check through already included alt files & let me have correction/addition details and I'll update the dats as and when. If there's anything you want to help with, just say & I can let you know the easiest way of passing over information etc. Anything like that is always a great help

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