Next gen Amiga - Page 3

PortuguesePilot · 19 March 2018, 01:37

Just to clear out some doubts that apparently persist regarding my previous posts:

1) I have no ill-will or negative opinion about ANY system that uses AROS or MorphOS. Quite on the contrary. I'm all for diversity (against the prevalence of "wintels" and now Androids too) and if these alternatives are AmigaOS based, the better. So go on with their development.

2) I still don't think these computers (running MorphOS or AROS) are Amigas. What model of Amiga are they? Amiga 5800? Amiga 12345? Some of you said it yourselves: some of these computers have a bitten Apple as a logo... How can they be an Amiga? The Amiga X5000 and the AmigaOne had the name "Amiga" in them but since they had no full backwards compatibility, I fail to see them as real Amigas. It's just as it is. Sorry. Even some Atarians say things like "the Falcon is NOT an ST", when the Falcon is much closer to an ST than the MorphOS/AROS machines are to an actual Amiga. Is it wishful-thinking to want the "next-gen" of Amigas to be fully (or almost) compatible with its previous generation? I think not. Hence my PC example as before. If they did it, why couldn't Commodore? In rigour, the "next gen" Amiga was the A3000 in a first stage followed by the A1200 and the A4000 lastly. Just as the A3000 was VERY compatible with the original Amiga (A1000), the A1200 and A4000 were also very compatible with the A3000 and A1000, so the A2400 and the A6000 (putative names) should be very compatible with the A1200 and the A4000 while still being able to churn out glide-like 3D graphics, read CD-ROMs, have large IDE/SATA hard-disks and have other contemporary (for 1995) features. One does not HAVE to exclude the other. Only with this scenario in place would the Amiga still persist. But it did not come to be. The Amiga line is, sadly, dead. These systems that run MorphOS and AROS aren't Amigas... They're just computers pretending to be Amigas.

Before some of you start hating my guts and wishing my untimely death, let me say this: What I wrote above is JUST my opinion and nothing more. It's not law or anything. It's just how I see this particular issue. Feel free to completely disagree. We can still be friends... (I hope)

Overlord · 19 March 2018, 02:48

"If they did it, why couldn't Commodore?"

By the sound of things because their management couldn't run a menage.

"I'm all for diversity (against the prevalence of "wintels" and now Androids too)"

Amen brother.

jediknight · 19 March 2018, 03:01

i think a brand new amiga 4000 with a 060 would do me only cheaper.

ajk · 19 March 2018, 06:11

Quote:

Is it wishful-thinking to want the "next-gen" of Amigas to be fully (or almost) compatible with its previous generation? I think not. Hence my PC example as before. If they did it, why couldn't Commodore?

I already answered this. Unlike with x86, the 68k line simply did not continue beyond the 060 and there was no direct follower for it. The way to ensure backwards compatibility therefore was emulation, which is what Apple did. And that is also what OS4 and MOS have done.

The difference is that Commodore went bankrupt too early and the user base and industry support for the Amiga vanished. It was touch and go for Apple, too in the 90s but they managed to survive and later thrive.

idrougge · 19 March 2018, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

Wasn't "Amiga" the whole chipset+processor combination? Wasn't the chipset (OCS, ECS and AGA), specifically, which MADE the Amiga? Then if you take that out of the equation, how can you still call it an Amiga? Genuine question. I would really like to know your (and anyone else who considers NG to be "Amigas") answer to this.

Not if you ask Commodore. They told you not to bang the hardware. They told you again. They withheld the documentation for the AGA chipset just so you wouldn't bang the hardware. They gave presentations of retargetable graphics at developer conferences and everyone knew it was the way ahead.

robinsonb5 · 19 March 2018, 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by idrougge

Not if you ask Commodore. They told you not to bang the hardware. They told you again. They withheld the documentation for the AGA chipset just so you wouldn't bang the hardware. They gave presentations of retargetable graphics at developer conferences and everyone knew it was the way ahead.

I'm not sure Commodore were the best authority on what constituted the "soul" of the Amiga! Yes, everyone know RTG was the way ahead, but it was also the way towards convergence - platforms losing their uniqueness.

malko · 19 March 2018, 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajk

I already answered this. Unlike with x86, the 68k line simply did not continue beyond the 060 and there was no direct follower for it. The way to ensure backwards compatibility therefore was emulation, which is what Apple did. And that is also what OS4 and MOS have done.[...]

Share this point of view

Cobe · 19 March 2018, 18:48

Recently I decided to sell my G5. I bought it few years ago, I thought that MorphOS would maybe eventually drop the price but it seems it never will.

jPV · 19 March 2018, 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobe

Recently I decided to sell my G5. I bought it few years ago, I thought that MorphOS would maybe eventually drop the price but it seems it never will.

Hmm? There have been price drops on MorphOS during the years, but what's your definition of a price drop?

The price has dropped first from 150e to 111.11e, then the price for older systems dropped to 79e (PMac G4, Pegasos) and 49e (Efika, Sam), and now a year or so ago the price of the latest supported systems (Powerbook, IBook, G5) also dropped to 79e. So, the price for your G5 system has dropped noticeably during the few years you've been waiting.

DDNI · 19 March 2018, 20:01

Trying AmigaOS4.1 classic on WinUAE is pretty cost effective at £26.00

http://www.hyperion-entertainment.co...on-for-classic

It isn’t the full experience of that seen on a new AmigaOne X1000 or X5000 though.

Cobe · 19 March 2018, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jPV

Hmm? There have been price drops on MorphOS during the years, but what's your definition of a price drop?

The price has dropped first from 150e to 111.11e, then the price for older systems dropped to 79e (PMac G4, Pegasos) and 49e (Efika, Sam), and now a year or so ago the price of the latest supported systems (Powerbook, IBook, G5) also dropped to 79e. So, the price for your G5 system has dropped noticeably during the few years you've been waiting.

Hm, I think it was 100e for g5 last time I checked but 79e is still too much for our poor local economy.

jPV · 19 March 2018, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDNI

Trying AmigaOS4.1 classic on WinUAE is pretty cost effective at £26.00

Also if you happen to have MorphOS compatible hardware, trying out it is free. You can try fully working MorphOS as a live-cd or install it to HD, but without registration you'll have to reboot it every 30 mins (or use it in slow motion mode after it). Just to let people know, because many don't seem to know much about it

DDNI · 19 March 2018, 21:42

Good point jPV.
You still need to buy a £70 license if you like it.
The cost of entry to NG Amiga really isn't the block that it used to be.

Also, attend your local Amiga meets to try NG out for free on real hardware!
Amiga is about the people and not the OS flavour

McTrinsic · 19 March 2018, 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by MigaTech

[...]the A5000, made it to at least 3 prototype motherboards![...]

Pics or it didn't happen

grelbfarlk · 20 March 2018, 00:00

I think someone is just getting confused by the Nyx or AAA motherboards and assuming that an assembled motherboard is representative of anything.

knightbeat · 20 March 2018, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MigaTech

Yes I did that on purpose because most people do not know that the A5000, made it to at least 3 prototype motherboards!

One of which was a developer board.

Are you thinking of the Nyx board? It may have been sold as the A5000 if it had been released, but didn't progress to the point where it was given an official name. The Amigahistory link refers specifically to concept art created by Amiga Format mag.

[ Show youtube player ]

AmigaEd · 20 March 2018, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jPV

Also if you happen to have MorphOS compatible hardware, trying out it is free. You can try fully working MorphOS as a live-cd or install it to HD, but without registration you'll have to reboot it every 30 mins (or use it in slow motion mode after it). Just to let people know, because many don't seem to know much about it

Thank you for passing that info along. I was not aware of this.

Tigerskunk · 20 March 2018, 08:55

I think, these days where the Amiga is more and more becoming a retro hobby, the time for those "NG"-machines is kind of over.

The reason these OSes were started for are kind of obsolete now.

I kind of like what the Vampire is trying and I see the Amigas future there..

E-Penguin · 20 March 2018, 09:50

I definitely see the Vampire as an "NG" machine. It's got a reasonable amount of oomph in it, runs 68k directly but has evolved things with more RAM, RTG, and the forthcoming SAGA. Not everyone may agree with every design choice but it's an exceptional achievement for a bunch of enthusiasts.

Whoever actually holds the rights for OS4.1 ought to port it to Vampire.

Locutus · 20 March 2018, 09:54

MorphOS was one of those things back in 2005 or so (1.x days) when enough of us nerds thought a reasonably affordable PowerPC board with a lightweight OS was cool, not just because it was Amiga-oid.

Alas, it didn't last long once you realised you couldn't actually hack away at it and a OS developed by a small private group was a nonsensical idea. Not to mention the whole OS design isn't future proof. End conclusion, the whole thing wasn't really nerd-friendly *at all*

Everyone i know from back then with a interest in it just moved over straight to Linux very quickly.

19 March 2018, 02:48	#42
Overlord Overlord Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Glasgow Posts: 45	"If they did it, why couldn't Commodore?" By the sound of things because their management couldn't run a menage. "I'm all for diversity (against the prevalence of "wintels" and now Androids too)" Amen brother. Last edited by Overlord; 19 March 2018 at 02:55.

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19 March 2018, 01:37	#41
PortuguesePilot Global Moderator Join Date: May 2013 Location: Setúbal, Portugal Posts: 609	Just to clear out some doubts that apparently persist regarding my previous posts: 1) I have no ill-will or negative opinion about ANY system that uses AROS or MorphOS. Quite on the contrary. I'm all for diversity (against the prevalence of "wintels" and now Androids too) and if these alternatives are AmigaOS based, the better. So go on with their development. 2) I still don't think these computers (running MorphOS or AROS) are Amigas. What model of Amiga are they? Amiga 5800? Amiga 12345? Some of you said it yourselves: some of these computers have a bitten Apple as a logo... How can they be an Amiga? The Amiga X5000 and the AmigaOne had the name "Amiga" in them but since they had no full backwards compatibility, I fail to see them as real Amigas. It's just as it is. Sorry. Even some Atarians say things like "the Falcon is NOT an ST", when the Falcon is much closer to an ST than the MorphOS/AROS machines are to an actual Amiga. Is it wishful-thinking to want the "next-gen" of Amigas to be fully (or almost) compatible with its previous generation? I think not. Hence my PC example as before. If they did it, why couldn't Commodore? In rigour, the "next gen" Amiga was the A3000 in a first stage followed by the A1200 and the A4000 lastly. Just as the A3000 was VERY compatible with the original Amiga (A1000), the A1200 and A4000 were also very compatible with the A3000 and A1000, so the A2400 and the A6000 (putative names) should be very compatible with the A1200 and the A4000 while still being able to churn out glide-like 3D graphics, read CD-ROMs, have large IDE/SATA hard-disks and have other contemporary (for 1995) features. One does not HAVE to exclude the other. Only with this scenario in place would the Amiga still persist. But it did not come to be. The Amiga line is, sadly, dead. These systems that run MorphOS and AROS aren't Amigas... They're just computers pretending to be Amigas. Before some of you start hating my guts and wishing my untimely death, let me say this: What I wrote above is JUST my opinion and nothing more. It's not law or anything. It's just how I see this particular issue. Feel free to completely disagree. We can still be friends... (I hope)

19 March 2018, 03:01	#43
jediknight Registered User Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: bolton Posts: 145	i think a brand new amiga 4000 with a 060 would do me only cheaper.

19 March 2018, 18:48	#48
Cobe Registered User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Belgrade / Serbia Age: 41 Posts: 999	Recently I decided to sell my G5. I bought it few years ago, I thought that MorphOS would maybe eventually drop the price but it seems it never will.

19 March 2018, 20:01	#50
DDNI Targ Explorer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 5,431	Trying AmigaOS4.1 classic on WinUAE is pretty cost effective at £26.00 http://www.hyperion-entertainment.co...on-for-classic It isn’t the full experience of that seen on a new AmigaOne X1000 or X5000 though.

19 March 2018, 21:42	#53
DDNI Targ Explorer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 5,431	Good point jPV. You still need to buy a £70 license if you like it. The cost of entry to NG Amiga really isn't the block that it used to be. Also, attend your local Amiga meets to try NG out for free on real hardware! Amiga is about the people and not the OS flavour

20 March 2018, 00:00	#55
grelbfarlk Registered User Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: USA Posts: 2,902	I think someone is just getting confused by the Nyx or AAA motherboards and assuming that an assembled motherboard is representative of anything.

20 March 2018, 08:55	#58
Tigerskunk Inviyya Dude! Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Amiga Island Posts: 2,770	I think, these days where the Amiga is more and more becoming a retro hobby, the time for those "NG"-machines is kind of over. The reason these OSes were started for are kind of obsolete now. I kind of like what the Vampire is trying and I see the Amigas future there..

20 March 2018, 09:50	#59
E-Penguin Banana Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Darmstadt Posts: 1,213	I definitely see the Vampire as an "NG" machine. It's got a reasonable amount of oomph in it, runs 68k directly but has evolved things with more RAM, RTG, and the forthcoming SAGA. Not everyone may agree with every design choice but it's an exceptional achievement for a bunch of enthusiasts. Whoever actually holds the rights for OS4.1 ought to port it to Vampire.

20 March 2018, 09:54	#60
Locutus Registered User Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Finland Posts: 1,176	MorphOS was one of those things back in 2005 or so (1.x days) when enough of us nerds thought a reasonably affordable PowerPC board with a lightweight OS was cool, not just because it was Amiga-oid. Alas, it didn't last long once you realised you couldn't actually hack away at it and a OS developed by a small private group was a nonsensical idea. Not to mention the whole OS design isn't future proof. End conclusion, the whole thing wasn't really nerd-friendly at all Everyone i know from back then with a interest in it just moved over straight to Linux very quickly.

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