English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Amiga scene

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 04 March 2019, 15:24   #1
AmigaHope
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Sandusky
Posts: 319
ASIC Apollo/Vampire core?

Now that we're getting closer and closer to a finalized version of the Apollo 68080 core, is there any hope that we'll someday get an ASIC version of it? That could potentially destroy the performance of any FPGA implementation. There are tons of second-source fabs that could crank out chips for cheap at older process nodes.... i.e. nobody's expecting a 7nm 68080 but a 65nm 68080 could potentially outperform the FPGA implementations by being able to be clocked at a much higher clock rate...
AmigaHope is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 15:40   #2
Samurai_Crow
Total Chaos forever!

Samurai_Crow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ft. Collins, CO USA
Age: 45
Posts: 1,307
Send a message via Yahoo to Samurai_Crow
There are 3 issues here. The expensive part of doing an ASIC is creating the mask so you want it completely done and perfect before you start building. The second issue is that only the CPU is really done but the 68080 is an SoC design and won't really be done until the chipset core is also debugged. Finally, Apollo team has permission to create softcore implementation of the 680x0 series instruction set but the rights holders of the copyright owner gets first choice of making an ASIC when it's ready.
Samurai_Crow is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 15:41   #3
Romanujan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Szczecin/Poland
Posts: 342
You should rather ask the Apollo Core team...
Romanujan is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 15:46   #4
Samurai_Crow
Total Chaos forever!

Samurai_Crow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ft. Collins, CO USA
Age: 45
Posts: 1,307
Send a message via Yahoo to Samurai_Crow
Not necessarily, a hardware designer can get higher speed grade FPGAs. Gunnar has said that if someone gets established in the accelerator field and supplies about 4 complete accelerator cards to the Apollo team, he would be willing to port the 68080 to it for a price. Ask if you know anyone willing and able to do that part.
Samurai_Crow is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 15:53   #5
grond
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow View Post
Finally, Apollo team has permission to create softcore implementation of the 680x0 series instruction set but the rights holders of the copyright owner gets first choice of making an ASIC when it's ready.
What?
grond is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 15:54   #6
Samurai_Crow
Total Chaos forever!

Samurai_Crow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ft. Collins, CO USA
Age: 45
Posts: 1,307
Send a message via Yahoo to Samurai_Crow
Has the situation changed, Grond?
Samurai_Crow is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:11   #7
AmigaHope
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Sandusky
Posts: 319
Honestly I'd be happy with an ASIC 68080 and an FPGA SAGA. 2D graphics don't need an ASIC to be fast these days, but more CPU is always appreciated.
AmigaHope is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:16   #8
Samurai_Crow
Total Chaos forever!

Samurai_Crow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ft. Collins, CO USA
Age: 45
Posts: 1,307
Send a message via Yahoo to Samurai_Crow
Quote:
Originally Posted by grond View Post
What?
To anybody who doesn't know already, Grond is the legal expert of the Apollo team. Take his words over mine.

The most recent knowledge I have regarding the situation was before NXP bought Freescale. They said that making a softcore was permitted and anything beyond that could be negotiated.
Samurai_Crow is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:23   #9
AmigaHope
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Sandusky
Posts: 319
Any patents on the 68000-68060 are long expired so I don't see how Freescale/NXP could have any control over derivatives. Of course there could be other patents that Apollo team might be violating in advanced features they've implemented, but those wouldn't be specific to 68k and could be owned by anyone potentially.

Courts have already ruled in multiple jurisdictions that you can't copyright an API/ABI, so copyright is not an issue here, only patents.
AmigaHope is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:27   #10
Samurai_Crow
Total Chaos forever!

Samurai_Crow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ft. Collins, CO USA
Age: 45
Posts: 1,307
Send a message via Yahoo to Samurai_Crow
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmigaHope View Post
Courts have already ruled in multiple jurisdictions that you can't copyright an API/ABI, so copyright is not an issue here, only patents.
I wasn't aware that the instruction set could not be copyrighted.
Samurai_Crow is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:27   #11
grond
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Germany
Posts: 653
There is no permission or license and neither a need for one. All patents expired long ago and for all I know an ISA or instruciton encoding scheme is not copyrightable.
grond is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:32   #12
AmigaHope
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Sandusky
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow View Post
I wasn't aware that the instruction set could not be copyrighted.
You can copyright the description and implementation of an ABI (i.e. the manual you use to describe it), but you can't copyright the ABI itself. That's why Compaq could produce IBM PC clones compatible with the IBM BIOS ABI, and why you can write your own Java Virtual Machine without paying Oracle (and a JVM is effectively a CPU).
AmigaHope is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:34   #13
kolla
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow View Post
Grond is the legal expert of the Apollo team.
A legal expert that all ok with software piracy.
kolla is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:36   #14
Samurai_Crow
Total Chaos forever!

Samurai_Crow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ft. Collins, CO USA
Age: 45
Posts: 1,307
Send a message via Yahoo to Samurai_Crow
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
A legal expert that all ok with software piracy.
Off topic: Who sent the DMCA takedown notice?
Samurai_Crow is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:37   #15
kolla
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai_Crow View Post
Off topic: Who sent the DMCA takedown notice?
Be more specific - what DMCA takedown notice?
kolla is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:39   #16
Samurai_Crow
Total Chaos forever!

Samurai_Crow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ft. Collins, CO USA
Age: 45
Posts: 1,307
Send a message via Yahoo to Samurai_Crow
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Be more specific - what DMCA takedown notice?
Point taken. End of subject.
Samurai_Crow is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:40   #17
AmigaHope
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Sandusky
Posts: 319
For instance somebody years ago if they were crazy assholes could have patented the WASD control scheme for moving a character in a first person shooter, but they couldn't copyright it. WASD is an interface for telling Gordon Freeman what to do. WASD itself is not a story or music, etc., it's an invention. You could only copyright the instruction manual that describes how WASD works, but the *concept* of WASD could only be patented.

(Of course in reality nobody could have patented it because it's too similar to old obvious methods of control like IJKM, but you get the idea.)
AmigaHope is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:44   #18
kolla
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,899
Ah, so Coffin is hence a legal OS3.9 distribution? That is worthy a news item.
kolla is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:52   #19
AmigaHope
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: New Sandusky
Posts: 319
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Ah, so Coffin is hence a legal OS3.9 distribution? That is worthy a news item.
One of the stupidest aspects of copyright law is that in most jurisdictions you can make personal copies of your own media for personal use, but not identical copies off of other media. i.e. I can rip my Snoop Dogg CD to a wav file but I can't rip it off my friend's CD even though we both own the CD and the end result is the same.

So if you downloaded something that generated Coffin from your OS 3.9 CD then it would be legal, but downloading it premade would not, even though the end result was the same.

That said it's such a stupid distinction that it's usually not prosecuted unless the vast majority of people doing it don't own the original. When most of the users own the original then much grumbling ensues.
AmigaHope is offline  
Old 04 March 2019, 16:54   #20
kolla
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,899
ASIC Apollo/Vampire core?

I think it is safe to assume that most A600 and A500 systems that have been upgraded with Vampire cards, did not run OS 3.9 prior to the upgrade.
kolla is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Vampire II has had a GOLD3 core ALPHA released! Mikerochip Amiga scene 197 27 September 2018 19:16
GOLD2.10 core released for Vampire V2 TuKo Amiga scene 146 26 August 2018 15:38
Vampire Gold Core v2.9 released Sinphaltimus News 39 11 June 2018 12:03
SILVER9 core released for Vampire 600 V2 TuKo News 1 04 August 2016 14:13
SILVER8 core released for Vampire 600 V2 TuKo News 3 02 August 2016 05:13

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.09141 seconds with 13 queries