English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Amiga scene

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 14 January 2019, 09:12   #501
Romanujan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Szczecin/Poland
Posts: 342
@Hewitson - I don't consider it massively overpriced; the marked for this update is very small, this always rises the price.

And regarding the shell bugs... recent bug in M$ Windows was deleting files, recent bug in Linux kernel was damaging hard drives, and previous AmigaOS releases had serious bugs with such basic things like hard disk support :/

@kolla - Although you are fully right about this licensing issues, and I hope Hyperion will get spanked for this really hard in one way or another, you are exaggerating the problem with shell. Simply using older shell (3.9, 3.1, whichever) will fix the FailAt problem, but might as well introduce other problems - simply because such configuration was probably not tested at all.
Romanujan is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 09:52   #502
kolla
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,899
Yes, using old shell fixes the problem for those of us who know how to extract the old shell from kickstart files and rom updates... it does not fix the problem for those who just install a kickstart and boot up floppies or use random scripts from aminet or wherever.

And regardless, how such a bug handled is more interesting than the bug itself - this nasty one is already more than two months old now.
kolla is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 11:00   #503
malko
Ex nihilo nihil

malko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: CH
Posts: 2,297
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Yes, using old shell fixes the problem for those of us who know how to extract the old shell from kickstart files and rom updates... it does not fix the problem for those who just install a kickstart and boot up floppies or use random scripts from aminet or wherever. [...]
On all the forums where I've read something, you are complaining about the same "failat" issue and with the same bitter criticism.

I'm not minimizing this issue but "much ado about nothing", your posts are worthy a Shakespeare sonnet... in less funny.

According to you this is such a "big issue" that :
- it annihilates all other OS 3.1.4 improvements
- the vast majority of the Amiga community is stuck and can no longer work. As only a few, of which you are a part, know...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla
[...] how to extract the old shell from kickstart files and rom updates [...]
So, for the many users, whose interests you defend so strongly, unable to work with the 3.1.4 that they have bought spending expensive money, why don't you just post here, in a new specific thread, the step by step workaround guide on how to achieve the shell fixing. You will be a great help for ALL of them.
malko is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 12:20   #504
kolla
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,899
AmigaOS 3.1.4 withdrawn from market after Amiga

Well, first step is to remove the OS 3.1.4 kickstart and reinsert the OS 3.1 kickstart, so you have a rom to rip and extract from. Oh, you upgraded from 3.0 or 2.x? Sorry, you are out of luck. Ask Hyperion for a 3.1 shell, or buy 3.1 first. Or download from your favourite pirate site.
kolla is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 12:47   #505
Gorf
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Munich/Bavaria
Posts: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by gulliver View Post
There is a bug, the bug has been acknowledged, a solution has been found, and what I was trying to say, is that there are several ways to deliver the fix, not just one or two. And then the bugfix will be available in some form when we feel it is ready, not when someone else wants it.

So you are saying, you are acknowledging that a faulty product was delivered to your customers.
You also do know how to fix - but you not make that fix available for your customers.

Only at some point in future, when you "feel" it might be the right time there might be a better release for your paying customers ... but not if your customers want it, because ... how dare they - stupid users!
Gorf is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 12:53   #506
indigolemon
Bit Copying Bard

indigolemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Kelty, Fife, Scotland
Age: 37
Posts: 737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
So you are saying, you are acknowledging that a faulty product was delivered to your customers.
You also do know how to fix - but you not make that fix available for your customers.

Only at some point in future, when you "feel" it might be the right time there might be a better release for your paying customers ... but not if your customers want it, because ... how dare they - stupid users!
Did you miss the 'when it is ready' part? I think you missed the 'when it is ready part' ...
indigolemon is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 12:55   #507
kolla
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,899
So, around xmas times, as I said.
kolla is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 12:57   #508
Romanujan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Szczecin/Poland
Posts: 342
@Gorf - delivering a fix before developers and testers feel it is ready typically leads to even more bugs. Like in this poem:

99 little bugs in the code
99 little bugs in the code
Take one down, patch it around
117 little bugs in the code

I prefer to wait for 2 or 3 months and receive a proper fix - not a half-baked one, breaking who knows what. Especially that I know where the problem is, I can easily find all affected scripts, and I know about a temporary workaround which is probably suitable for 99.9% users.
Romanujan is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 13:00   #509
Gorf
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Munich/Bavaria
Posts: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by indigolemon View Post
Did you miss the 'when it is ready' part? I think you missed the 'when it is ready part' ...
No:
"There is a bug, the bug has been acknowledged, a solution has been found"

so apparently the solution has already been found...

And there is of course always the solution of delivering a version with the working old shell and re-include the new shell when it is really ready.

easy for all who purchased a digital download ... not so easy for customers with a physical ROM ... sending it back and getting a new version for free might take some time
Gorf is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 13:06   #510
Gorf
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Munich/Bavaria
Posts: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanujan View Post
I can easily find all affected scripts, and I know about a temporary workaround which is probably suitable for 99.9% users.
I know all that - it is just the way how all this is handled does not feel right to me.
Even Microsoft or Apple can no longer act this way and try to release fixes as soon as possible (and for free).

And to go back to the topic here:
Hyperion might not have all the time in the word .....
Gorf is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 13:08   #511
roondar
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
You also do know how to fix - but you not make that fix available for your customers.
I really don't want to get into discussion much, but you do realize that knowing how to fix something and having the actual fix in place are two totally different things, right?

For all we know it's much more tricky to implement this fix than we might think. And for all we know re-introducing the 3.1 shell has other potential problems that make this a poor overall solution. OS's are complicated stuff, you don't want to randomly change parts of it.

Furthermore, it's not at all clear how to me many people out of the total 3.1.4 'population' are actually adversely affected by this bug. Which is pretty crucial information for determining how big the priority for fixing it should be.

As I don't actually own 3.1.4, I can't judge this either.
roondar is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 13:44   #512
FOL
PSPUAE DEV

FOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Barry / UK
Age: 41
Posts: 5,734
Send a message via MSN to FOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Furthermore, it's not at all clear how to me many people out of the total 3.1.4 'population' are actually adversely affected by this bug. Which is pretty crucial information for determining how big the priority for fixing it should be.

So what your saying is. You buy a TV, it wont work on one channel. So manufacturer says don't worry there will only be a few people who want to watch that channel. It should not matter.



I think the only solution is software approach, Hyperion will not pay for mass returns from customers to get replacement / reflashed roms. Sort of defeats the object of updated rom, if your back to patch resets.
FOL is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 13:50   #513
Romanujan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Szczecin/Poland
Posts: 342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
I know all that - it is just the way how all this is handled does not feel right to me.
Even Microsoft or Apple can no longer act this way and try to release fixes as soon as possible (and for free).

Than rest assured, that before delivering any fix to the end user (even if it is reversing some component to the older release), they should be tested first. To be sure that it won't introduce other problems, to be sure that older component works well in the new environment, etc. Which takes time, sometimes quite a lot. Or else you will get another 'Windows 10 October 2018' quality update.

If the team would like to test the OS with 3.9 shell first (in order to provide an official quick-fix), we would have to wait for the proper fix LONGER. In some cases (bug causes risk to a valuable property or human life) it would be reasonable to go the 'older component' route first, to get the bug fixed ASAP. In other cases (retrocomputing system, not used for anything serious anymore, with very limited development manpower) to 'proper fix' route is more reasonable.
Romanujan is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 14:06   #514
roondar
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOL View Post
So what your saying is. You buy a TV, it wont work on one channel. So manufacturer says don't worry there will only be a few people who want to watch that channel. It should not matter.
No, that is not what I'm saying. Try again.
roondar is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 14:29   #515
malko
Ex nihilo nihil

malko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: CH
Posts: 2,297
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Well, first step is to remove the OS 3.1.4 kickstart and reinsert the OS 3.1 kickstart, so you have a rom to rip and extract from. Oh, you upgraded from 3.0 or 2.x? Sorry, you are out of luck. Ask Hyperion for a 3.1 shell, or buy 3.1 first. Or download from your favourite pirate site.
This propensity to post non-constructive responses is quite impressive .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
So you are saying, you are acknowledging that a faulty product was delivered to your customers. [...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
[...] release fixes as soon as possible (and for free). [...]
You tend to ramble.
Answer has already been provided. Strangely, like @kolla, you don't want to listen to it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
First of all, let me say that I am sorry that I missed a bug in the shell, despite testing. [...] Strangely, this was not detected during testing, which still astonishes me given that the shell was under test for quite a while.
[...]
Will this be fixed? Of course it will. There will be an update, tentatively scheduled for Q1 2019, but as always, it will be ready when it will be ready. According to my information, this will be a free update for 3.1.4 owners.
[...]
I just don't want to let things stand as incorrect as they are.

@kolla & @gorf : do us a favour and go post your bad mood in another thread. Leave this one for news about the court case.
malko is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 14:50   #516
kolla
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,899
@ Romanujan
Quote:
Especially that I know where the problem is, I can easily find all affected scripts
Really.

Quote:
I know about a temporary workaround which is probably suitable for 99.9% users.
Please do share.

@malko
Quote:
This propensity to post non-constructive responses is quite impressive
So what is your suggestion for a temporary fix for people who upgraded to kick 3.1.4 ROMs?

Last edited by kolla; 14 January 2019 at 15:06.
kolla is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 15:11   #517
Gorf
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Munich/Bavaria
Posts: 869
@malko

this is me in perfectly good mood

And I think this matter is relevant and very on-topic:
as Hyperion might lose the rights to distribute OS3.x, the question of a bugfixed version is kind of urgent.

To be on the save side Hyperion should publish the updated source code.
(this does not necessarily mean with a copyleft permission - there are many more restrictive licenses if they feel the need)

Last edited by Gorf; 14 January 2019 at 19:29.
Gorf is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 18:53   #518
UberFreak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: the world
Posts: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
To be on the save side Hyperion should publish the updated source code.
Repeating this every other post won't make it happen, they can't release what they don't own.
UberFreak is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 19:13   #519
hth313
On strike for kolla
hth313's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Delta, Canada
Posts: 185
If there is a desire to release this fix, it may unfortunately be quite urgent to do so. A court may soon rule to stop any further distribution of this software. It is not for sure they may be allowed to distribute fixes after that... at least not for a while (one year).
hth313 is offline  
Old 14 January 2019, 19:18   #520
kolla
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Posts: 1,899
Quote:
Originally Posted by UberFreak View Post
they can't release what they don't own.
Well, that's not an excuse they can use while also claiming full ownership.
kolla is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Withdrawn] FS Blizzard 1230 50 MHz 32 MB RAM Amiga030 MarketPlace 1 06 September 2016 09:50
Is E3B done in the Amiga market? source Hardware mods 3 16 February 2015 19:59
The AMIGA Market value and your collection values Gordon Amiga scene 12 11 September 2009 18:25
Sky News: 3.5" floppies to be withdrawn from shelves Dastardly News 11 01 February 2007 13:26
Market Place or Amiga Stuff for Free? martin-flash MarketPlace 2 02 November 2005 18:14

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.13345 seconds with 16 queries