What do you think about remakes ?

[Maverick357]

Shatterhand:

I had downloaded 18 months ago every MSX roms (systems) and every games that i can find on the net.

I have try every MSX emulators for dos and windows and get every emulators update each month (and yes i know NO$MSX ).

But when i look at the speed of the same game on different emulated computers (MSX game with a version of the same for C64) there is no comparison is speed emulation because the C64 is today better emulated !

The MSX (and the MSX 2) whas a very good computer with a lots of possibilitys but the emulation of this machine is not good in comparison with others emulated computers/consoles.

Last week i delete the whole thing for MSX (>200 games MSX and > 100 MSX2 games) because the MSX emulation scene is not very active (like the Atari 800xl, i had > 1 Gigas of games for Atari 800XL-1200XL but delete too at the same time because the emulation and tools for this computers whas far to perfect (and somes emulators crash to many and too easy), i don't download roms/emulators to get it every computers ever made in the world, but only for somes computers/consoles because they have a magic history in the computer history).

I use and enjoy the emulation of Spectrum, C64 and Amiga/Atari ST because i had this computers in the past, and that i haves remembers with it.

They are perfect emulations and real time speed of the computers emulated (well not the case anymore for Amiga emulation).

If a emulation does not give a perfect emulation with real speed without to have a very fast and powerfull computer, well then i prefer not use the emulation computer anymore because you do not get the fun and the emotions of it.


Twistin'Ghost:
I know that Amiga is a complex computer, but remember that hardware is fixed and don't mutate.

If the emulators programmers get a 100% emulation of the hardware (divide and conquer, in fact you can create every piece of hardware in separete code to make re-usable module for others emulators., just think about how is emulated processors, there are Z80 code program, 6502 code program, custom C64 chips, ect... , if they emulate the piece of Amiga hardware in subroutine library, then they can make a 100% compatible with every program ever made on the Amiga and 100 % of every protection will work on the Emulator JUST because the harware IS 100 % EMULATED WITH THE MAXIMUM ACCURACY.
Same the speed will be very fast because you can optimize every hardware piece in a separate way)

And better, if you have the logical of the hardware in an algorithmic document, then you can port the piece of this harware on others platform for the emulator (like a windows or Linux or Mac version).

This is how they made for ZSnes and every professional emulation.If you can programming yourself, Twistin'Ghost, you will know that a modular programming is more readible, more easy to modify and to optimize because they are separate object.
If the emulator programmers team see the work in a different way (a library of every piece of hardware that you can use in a emulator project, then it will become easy to create emulators like using a vga graphics library) in place than a recompiled version of the whole thing, every thing will be perfect in Amiga emulator.

Just think about (i am not electronician but i have read some books about), if you use basic electronic pieces, you can recreate every custom chips, every piece of electronic harware but the size of it will be bigger and only because they are silicium not chips.

In fact, a piece of electronic hardware is only a hardware version of a program (there is locical port, and the rest is only to give the power, ect...).

My knowlegde is made of sef-made learning because in my life, i have not got the chance to make great school study.

This is why i don't have the knowledge, the documentation for the target computer need to be emulated, or the time to do it.

But my experience in programming say to me that it is ALLWAYS better to create a very good program with a lot of subroutines than another one with only one big routine.

Other think, to help you to understand me, in a processor, you have only a small set of instruction (small pieces), but you can create every combinaisons/program that you ever dream about.
It work fine because each instructions on the same processor family (68000 - 680x0, 8080 - P586) have the same meaning and react at 100% identical.

The MAME project is based on this logic, every cpu used with MAME is in separate source code/object code and the emulator MAME take and link what the rom is supposed to use as harware.
It work perfectly without problem, at full speed for every arcade emulated in MAME, and don't say that this sort of emulator is not complex.

[Shatterhand]

Funny, you say MAME emulation is fast, and MSX emulation isn't

I can't understand that, MSX emulation runs at full-speed in very low-end computers, while MAME is slow in most computers.....

I don't think MSX is bad emulated... the MSX 1 is perfect emulated by nearly every emulator, and at the same speed of a real msx. The MSX 2 and 2+ may have a few problems in many emulators, but not with speed.... most of them run at the same speed of a real MSX...

Maybe I know what's the problem.. were you running your emulators in PAL mode (50 Hz?) ... nearly all games were made to run in NTSC (60 Hz) mode , so maybe that's your problem with speed....

[Maverick357]

Yes Shatterhand, because PAL is the european standard for TV (except maybee France with the secam type), and every computers sell in Europe whas using the PAL system (included MSX).

With others system emulated (Nes, SNes, Megadrivre, C64, ect...) there is never a problem of speed if i use the PAL mode with games made for the NTSC (us roms).
I think that cannot be the reason because the video mode (PAL/SECAM/NTSC) is more a sytem of refreshing speed of the video screen (the tv screen with electron beam inside), and a specific codification of datas picture transmited to the screen.
More the frequency is high, more the picture seen is stable.

This is why today there is TV with a frequency of 100 Hz sold.

The speed of the cpu stay the same between American and european version of the same computer/console.

[Maverick357]

Here is a perfect example of what can be done for making a great remake.
The game is 100% identical of the origal game but with very better graphics and sounds

Here is the links to download it: http://www.xmixdrix.com/manicminer/m32setup.exe

It is a very good game, it is a must have game for every retro-gaming (if you have got a spectrum in the past, you know this game )

[7-Zark-7]

Like Twistin' I too have a few problems with the "remakes" syndrome that can occur with some games. Okay,it's one thing when it might be something like "Skooldaze" & be a freeware release,but it's quite another when their charging for the privilage of playing the same old game again. But more so, just updating things just for the sake of it that destroy what the game/concept was about. For example last I'd ever seen/read anything on Last Ninja 4 it was being changed from the classic isometric view to First person ala Tomb Raider.

But another factor to consider in some of these rehashes sometimes is that it's being done by someone different. The Amiga version of Creatures for example,made nowhere near the use of the host machine compared to the original C64 version by the Rowland Bros. They were as dissapointed as anyone seeing the poor miggy version. I have no doubts that given the time, they could've written a far better version.

For examples of better rewrites,look at Rainbow Arts for Turrican,or Any Braybrook for his rewrites of Paradroid 90 & Uridium 2 where he redefined & improved those aspects of gameplay which you weren't aware of but still retained the original spirit of the gameplay that you enjoyed so much.

Unfortunately,you don't seem to see it as a general rule today with some releases. I'd fear seeing an "update" of something brilliant like Ghoul'n'Ghosts or the original Ghost's n' Goblins 'cos it'd undoubtedly be some crappy 3D version with no thought into the gameplay.

[7-Zark-7]

@Maverick 357. BTW, I forgot to mention this...The reason for the weird look of the graphics in Wing Commander came from the translation by the programmer. I recall from the preview in "The One" Magazine years ago. Due to the fact that he was converting the game to the OCS/ECS amiga's he had to reduce the game to 16 colours from the PC version's 256.
But due to the prgramming headaches of texture mapping on the slower Amiga machines compared to the faster PC's of the time, he developed a "cross-hatching" program that basically emulated a byte-per-pixel mode on an amiga.

Apparently there was a 256 colour AGA version of Wing Commander that was released for the CD32 & made use of the Akkiko graphics chip,but I don't know if a standard floppy AGA version was ever done,does anyone know/have it???

I just wish EA would rerelease the earlier games again. (For PC). There was a Win95 friendly version released years ago, but nothing's been done since.

[Maverick357]

I know that some remakes or port to another platform are bad ones, and i think too that a remake must keep the same gameplay (and not become a 3D game for example).

The link that i give in the previous respect the rules and the gameplay of the original.
If you read the website on how this remake whas made, you will see that a great effort have been done to respect the original game.

This is why i have get it as an example of what a remake must be done.

[Twistin'Ghost]

Originally posted by Maverick357
The speed of the cpu stay the same between American and european version of the same computer/console.

I don't agree with this global assumption. Even mods play at different speeds when in 50Hz/60Hz PAL/NTSC. And the demos and games I played in the pre-ECS days (when I was unable to do PAL mode on my NTSC Amiga) had significantly different speeds, among other differences. I have my A2000 motherboard hardware hacked to PAL now, since I prefer it. But I also have NTSC Amigas, as well. And even if the CPU speed stays the same, there is indeed a speed difference in games, demos and mods.

[Maverick357]

I think that is only because some program use the video frequency for sync. purpose but this is not the majority, in normal case you use a timer clock frequence (in 1/1000 of sec) to create timing in the game.

[Shatterhand]

@maverick357

Each time I am more sure your problem is with the 50hz/60hz stuff..

I know FOR SURE that if you run a game made to run at 60Hz in the 50Hz mode, the game runs slower...

I know that because the 1st time I tried an MSX emulator, I thought the same as you (WTF? The games are so slow!), then I read the docs, and just tried to change the emu to 60Hz mode, and presto, it was working at full speed...

The same happens with the Amiga, as Twistin said , a game could run faster or slower if I used or didn't use the Pal Booter (An util to change the video frequency).

[Amiga1992]

I ahve the "CD32" version of Wing Commander, running on my A1200. It's bloody fast, but it doesnt see mto be using Akiko, otherwise it would not run on the A1200 I presume.

About CPU speed, it's even denoted in the manual... It's a bit faster in NTSC... (7,16Mhz NTSC vs 7,09 PAL). Seems a small number, but noticeable enough. But some games work slower in NTSC than in PAL, because the machine is trying to write video lines at unexistant locations, thus wasting rastertime (or something like that, I am not much of a techie). This happens with NTSC consoles running some PAL cartridges too...

About remakes: since most of them today are full of bloat, I couldnt care less about them. Except the GBA ones. And VERY FEW "updates" in 3D for nextgen consoles that have been well done. But they are the least. look at that Defender of the Crown "Deluxe"... they fucked all the graphics up by hiring a "Photoshop airbrush maniac" freak. It looks like absolute blurred smudged poop, I preffer the originals, thank you very much.

commercial remakes are done to cash in on old ideas because a game will sell by the name itself (at least thats what they hope).

tribute remakes (such as i intend to do) are purely for personal satisfaction - i want to see if i can do it for myself - not sell it...

[kafiend]

Sadly its the commercial games that have a "name" attached that provide the cash cow that allow software companies the freedom to make innovative titles.

I do agree though that in many instances companies do make re-hashes of old games in a cynical manner.

If only there was a moral yardstick we could use to rate these companies.

[Minuous]

As I see it, remakes are totally pointless. A reverse-engineered remake is not going to be authentically the same as the original. You can make the graphics, etc. the same but non-obvious algorithms such as the artificial intelligence routines will have to be guessed at. You will end up with something similar to but subtly different from the real thing. Eg. all the various Pac-Man clones out there. Unless you have access to the original source code, or are willing to disassemble/decompile the entire thing, you won't get the right result.

Why not just play the authentic game with an emulator? That way you know it's the same as the real thing, because it IS the real thing.

I do think that there maybe is a case for making patches to DOS games, to remove known bugs/incompatibilities/etc. but this is roughly the same as doing WHDLoad/JST patches, it's nothing to do with remakes.

[Drake1009]

I've got one good reason for making remakes instead of playing the original. You learn stuff. I learned a lot in the course of programming Tetris, and the iced project to make a remake of locomotion I had to look up many things to get it to work. That the graphics still won't go right on screen is another problem I'll fix once I want to do a bit of math.

[Unknown_K]

Most remakes are not as fun as what you remember of the original game.

I liked Dune 2 for the PC when it came out, played it nonstop for a week (is the Amiga version better?). When the same company redid dune 2 and released it as dune 2000 its sucked.

Never could figure out whay they didnt just make the 2d graphics look a little more detailed instead of making everything so small on the screen. Must be real hard to update older code to run on a new faster platform these days.