English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Amiga scene

View Poll Results: What level of support/testing should game devs cover
They should support accelerators in all their prods 35 45.45%
They should only target stock Amigas, let the WHD team fix the gltiches 36 46.75%
Hardware manufacturers should enable a way for devs to disable their product programmatically 5 6.49%
They should go to another platform like SNES/MD/NEOGEO/C64/ZX 1 1.30%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 27 February 2021, 22:30   #61
Akira
Black Lives Matter

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 19,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
For example the Apollo 1260 is a terrible card if you want to use it with a properly installed system. Except, if you install OS3.9 as that runs smooth as silk from the beginning of the install, while it is a real pain if you want to build a WB manually bypassing the OS3.9 disliked by many.
Dude did you read the nightmare scenario you just described to get a computer to run decently? like all the variables involved in getting that to run... insane. For what benefit? A 060 card is not even "useful" for much else than a stock A1200 is (today). Unless you love using a deprecated, bad version of everything one can consider normal computing nowadays.

This is exactly the bullshit no one should deal with especially on a hobby platform in 2021. It should be: power up, load software, boom, it's running. And a game running from floppy can deliver exactly this simple, enjoyable feeling. You don't even need to use a real floppy, suit yourself with a nice floppy emulator, an "expansion" that actually makes sense owning.

This simplicity is not true of most Amiga setups today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgeezer View Post
Edit... hang on...
I'm now starting to wonder what people do actually do with the extra speed in their Amiga systems.
It's all about that hot, hot SysInfo action, man.
Akira is offline  
Old 27 February 2021, 22:42   #62
Reynolds
Alien Breeder
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Szigetszentmiklos / Hungary
Age: 43
Posts: 583
Hahaha.
No nightmare scenario just a clean os install and I get the performance to use... oh wait, load a game for 68000... yeah, sure, worth the effort to make, sell and buy any expansions. Imagine that, my A1200 with that Apollo 1260 actually boots up in secs and can run practically every Amiga game and demo which does not require RTG. So? Am I evil because bought an available expansion and want to get it use for what it is capable of? Please, seriously...
Reynolds is offline  
Old 27 February 2021, 22:45   #63
MikeRichmond
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Hull
Posts: 44
Yup, I was asked a couple of times why my game was coded to run from floppy. The reason? It's an Amiga game, designed to be played on a gaming Amiga. IMHO that's a stock A500/A600 or A1200. In fact, I believe it will even work on a 256k A1000.

I chose not to engage with the "I modified by A500 by changing the Agnus chip and cutting a track so it had more chip RAM then stuck a 68030 and RAM board on top of the processor and an RTG card - why won't your game work?" crowd. Not only for ideological reasons, but also because I don't have the programming skills to do that.

People want to complain about the game I made in my spare time and gave away for free? No problem: I won't be doing another.
MikeRichmond is offline  
Old 27 February 2021, 22:56   #64
dreadnought
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Ur, Atlantis
Posts: 818
No need to turn it into us vs them thing. I'm strictly from the classic camp but if devs want to make some games which work only on expanded machines, then more power to them. I don't expect nor demand that everything should be working on classic Amigas.

Equally, I don't see why people should make similar demands about games made for unexpanded machines. If a dev has time, skills and the will to make an extra effort and adjust his game for esoteric configs then that's grand. If not, no problem, and it definitely doesn't make him a bad programmer (or person).
dreadnought is offline  
Old 27 February 2021, 22:59   #65
roondar
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,755
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
Hahaha.
No nightmare scenario just a clean os install and I get the performance to use... oh wait, load a game for 68000... yeah, sure, worth the effort to make, sell and buy any expansions. Imagine that, my A1200 with that Apollo 1260 actually boots up in secs and can run practically every Amiga game and demo which does not require RTG. So? Am I evil because bought an available expansion and want to get it use for what it is capable of? Please, seriously...
No one said you were evil for wanting to use your expansion. But then again, developers get to choose what they want to target or not. Don't like it and complain about it in public because you chose to expand your Amiga and not all developers chose to develop for it? Please, seriously...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadnought View Post
No need to turn it into us vs them thing. I'm strictly from the classic camp but if devs want to make some games which work only on expanded machines, then more power to them. I don't expect nor demand that everything should be working on classic Amigas.

Equally, I don't see why people should make similar demands about games made for unexpanded machines. If a dev has time, skills and the will to make an extra effort and adjust his game for esoteric configs then that's grand. If not, no problem, and it definitely doesn't make him a bad programmer (or person).
This is basically what I think as well!
roondar is offline  
Old 27 February 2021, 23:06   #66
MikeRichmond
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Hull
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadnought View Post
No need to turn it into us vs them thing. I'm strictly from the classic camp but if devs want to make some games which work only on expanded machines, then more power to them. I don't expect nor demand that everything should be working on classic Amigas.

Equally, I don't see why people should make similar demands about games made for unexpanded machines. If a dev has time, skills and the will to make an extra effort and adjust his game for esoteric configs then that's grand. If not, no problem, and it definitely doesn't make him a bad programmer (or person).
You've derailed the thread by making a rational, sensible point with which it is almost impossible to disagree
MikeRichmond is offline  
Old 27 February 2021, 23:24   #67
malko
Ex nihilo nihil

malko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: CH
Posts: 3,304
Generally speaking, as "user" I always regretted the fact that so few games were OS friendly and thus, HD installable with the 1.3 KS/WB.
BitD if happened quite often that an original floppy game was not working on my A2000, and this sucked! But the cracked game worked... sick...
Support all possible configurations : no. But do not crash because of a present expansion : yes. In this regard, as I understood his post, I second phx.
malko is offline  
Old 27 February 2021, 23:28   #68
phx
Natteravn

phx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Herford / Germany
Posts: 1,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Another problem is that not one accelerator works like another, it's not like all you have to do is "support 680x0", it is well known that there are different (in)compatibilities among them.
Really? Do you have an example? And how would you address these incompatibilities in software?

Quote:
Personally, I have a 030 that really gives me a lot of headaches on my 1200.
Sounds like bad or defective hardware. Nothing which software could change.
phx is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 01:20   #69
LongLifeA1200
Registered User

LongLifeA1200's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Amiga Kingdom
Posts: 320
You're talking about retro games, aren't you, not modern ones. Should have the title of the topic changed.

Retro game compatibility is entirely within the discretion of the developer.
LongLifeA1200 is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 06:09   #70
sean_sk
Gimmemore Commodore

 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Australia
Posts: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
The projects MUST run on stock hardware of A500 or A1200 AT LEAST, and be compatible with faster hardware.
If x86 users had expected that all software MUST run on IBM XT's "AT LEAST", where would we be today?

Why stifle the development of more advanced software that may require the specifications of something like the Vampire as a minimum just because it must run on a stock A500/A1200? Let each developer decide what specifications they would like to support as a minimum.

Last edited by sean_sk; 28 February 2021 at 06:16.
sean_sk is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 07:26   #71
d4rk3lf
Registered User

d4rk3lf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia
Posts: 1,111
As other's:
It's totally programmer decision whatever game he/she likes to create, and on what hardware, and the rest of us should be grateful for time they spend for our favorite computer.

I totally understand if coder aim stock hardware. If I was a coder, I'd do the same for few games I have on mind.
However, I am curious why many of coders hesitate to make (at least) just a small tests/demo's aiming some of the newest Amiga hardware.
For example, if I understood correctly, Vampire have something like improved Aga (Saga), so some test with lot's of colorful hires sprites on the screen, moving quickly, would be interesting to see.
Or Warp accelerator,s that gives speed boost, it would be interesting to see how far A500 can go with 3D polygonal game, or A1200.

Well, I guess that even simple tests/demos requires huge amount of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgeezer View Post
I'm now starting to wonder what people do actually do with the extra speed in their Amiga systems.
Personally - nothing.
I have Aca 500+ that can go up to 42Mhz 68000, and I use it only when testing some 3D games (which is very rare), but I couldn't care less, because it's very nice experience with WHDLoad, and that's most important to me.
Heck, I didn't even used 42 Mhz, when I rendered some scenes in Real3D.

Btw, maybe you should think of adding option to the pool: "whatever coder choose", because I am unsure how to vote now.
d4rk3lf is online now  
Old 28 February 2021, 07:34   #72
Reynolds
Alien Breeder
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Szigetszentmiklos / Hungary
Age: 43
Posts: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
No one said you were evil for wanting to use your expansion. But then again, developers get to choose what they want to target or not. Don't like it and complain about it in public because you chose to expand your Amiga and not all developers chose to develop for it? Please, seriously...
You know what? In the heydays we felt ourselves so miserably because when on other platforms (e.g. pc and mac, not even on aming consoles) the resources were taken to get used for better and better audio and visuals, but we had stuff at the end of the mainstream era developed for basic models. Now we happily chain ourselves down to the same level, although formerly we cried due to the pain that even if we buy expansions, these hw add-ons never really got used by the developers... I wanna laugh. And if you roll back to my longer comment, I also wrote that the developer has the right to choose the config he/she want to target. But two things belongs to this right of his/her, still. First, as the userbase now can achieve practically any hw expansion's purchase, even for ridiculous prices, also the sw developments could worth more money for the bigger effort pushed into making something, especially because developing is easier with classes. Secondly, Not coding a program to be system-friendly, is scandalous. (sorry, can't find a better word atm.) The WHDLoad package was created due to the painful need to bypass floppy loading and fix freezes because of ignoring to code something system-friendly, as -again- in the heydays a simple hdd install wasn't taken into consideration as generic, default option, like it was always on the pc. Even if we'd see something revolutionary, I'd say is it understandable, but most games are far away from that. And I still keep in mind that these projects are all hobby-based freetime activities.

Okay, I shut up and sit down, by myself, thank you :P
Reynolds is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 07:46   #73
Reynolds
Alien Breeder
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Szigetszentmiklos / Hungary
Age: 43
Posts: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by malko View Post
Generally speaking, as "user" I always regretted the fact that so few games were OS friendly and thus, HD installable with the 1.3 KS/WB.
BitD if happened quite often that an original floppy game was not working on my A2000, and this sucked! But the cracked game worked... sick...
Support all possible configurations : no. But do not crash because of a present expansion : yes. In this regard, as I understood his post, I second phx.
So true. I can only agree with you.
Reynolds is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 08:24   #74
d4rk3lf
Registered User

d4rk3lf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Novi Sad, Serbia
Posts: 1,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foebane View Post
The projects MUST run on stock hardware of A500 or A1200 AT LEAST, and be compatible with faster hardware.
And they should bring us lemonade, and make a small donation to our Paypal account.
d4rk3lf is online now  
Old 28 February 2021, 08:29   #75
E-Penguin
Banana

E-Penguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 1,023
Lots of comments along the lines of "let the developers target whatever they like" but as soon as someone uses backbone and requires an A1200 + 4MB fast, they get slated...
E-Penguin is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 08:46   #76
BSzili
Registered User

BSzili's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hungary
Posts: 349
That is different from what mcgeezer is talking about. His problem is that Amiga game developers are expected to make their game compatible with every expanded Amiga configuration out there.
BSzili is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 08:56   #77
Reynolds
Alien Breeder
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Szigetszentmiklos / Hungary
Age: 43
Posts: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
Lots of comments along the lines of "let the developers target whatever they like" but as soon as someone uses backbone and requires an A1200 + 4MB fast, they get slated...
And that's because Backbone is nastily and shamelessly slaughters the resources in a stock machine with no additional benefit than building a game in IKEA-style. Try to imagine running a game like Shadow Of the Beast or Turrican made with Backbone...
Reynolds is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 09:10   #78
Reynolds
Alien Breeder
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Szigetszentmiklos / Hungary
Age: 43
Posts: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSzili View Post
That is different from what mcgeezer is talking about. His problem is that Amiga game developers are expected to make their game compatible with every expanded Amiga configuration out there.
Most developers are far to squeeze all power out from the config... from any config... so coding system-friendly shouldn't be a question. In that case running the program on any CPU could be more simple. Ignoring this and keeping one actual setup, then leaving WHD installers' creators to do the workaround is pure lazyness nowadays. Being more attentive, beside creativeness shouldn't be dismissed...
Reynolds is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 10:28   #79
E-Penguin
Banana

E-Penguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 1,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
And that's because Backbone is nastily and shamelessly slaughters the resources in a stock machine with no additional benefit than building a game in IKEA-style. Try to imagine running a game like Shadow Of the Beast or Turrican made with Backbone...
How do you square that with the "it's up to the developers" sentiment? Surely if they want to use a toolkit they may - or do we expect all developers to be amazing asm gurus?
E-Penguin is offline  
Old 28 February 2021, 11:34   #80
phx
Natteravn

phx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Herford / Germany
Posts: 1,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by BSzili View Post
That is different from what mcgeezer is talking about. His problem is that Amiga game developers are expected to make their game compatible with every expanded Amiga configuration out there.

And I was already starting to wonder...
Many postings here are off-topic. It's not about which configuration to target!
phx is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Retrokompott Gamescom live stream with many retro game devs rsn8887 Retrogaming General Discussion 1 15 September 2020 05:03
support.hardware - sections? BMD project.EAB 9 29 September 2018 22:25
WinUAE & AD516 Hardware support Pyromania support.WinUAE 2 16 July 2016 14:17
C64SD V3.0 Princess - The first SD2IEC with tap file support! [Hardware Review] Neil79 Retrogaming General Discussion 28 13 January 2015 03:54
DEVS:kickstart narud17 project.WHDLoad 4 06 March 2005 18:29

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.10641 seconds with 15 queries