English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Coders > Coders. General

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 04 July 2018, 08:53   #521
sandruzzo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Italy/Rome
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaInCorpore View Post
Yeah, sure: monumentally and totally. It seems that you need these superlatives to have an excuse for not having good arcade ports after 30 years.

Also the "publisher restraints" is the other excuse way back then. There are no restraints now and every "good" coder can show that he's able to deliver. It's even more convenient to develop on modern platforms but there's no real visible progress especially in having better conversions of arcade games.

Anyway, I was asking for help to port Cho Ren Sha 68k to the Amiga platform but there was no support at all. Probably everyone knows that the Amiga (1200) is not able to perform adequately for that certain task.

The only conclusion is that everything about having "good arcade games for the Amiga" is just talking but not doing and that's what I would say is MONUMENTALLY and TOTALLY wrong.
I think the problem is money end time to invest. Doing a good game conversion require a lot of them...
sandruzzo is offline  
Old 04 July 2018, 09:13   #522
AnimaInCorpore
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Willich/Germany
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandruzzo View Post
I think the problem is money end time to invest. Doing a good game conversion require a lot of them...
Ok, just tell me how much time and money you need. It's just that simple. However, you can even try to start a "Kickstarter" project. Then make a decision if this is feasible for the task. In fact, no one tried that so far but don't ask me why.
AnimaInCorpore is offline  
Old 04 July 2018, 10:27   #523
Dunny
Registered User

Dunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Scunthorpe/United Kingdom
Posts: 1,066
Because it's really not worth it unless you're pretty much a hobbyist? I mean, the Amiga market is pretty limited after all, what with it being a dead platform.

Let's see... I think that I would probably want about a year to code a decent game. Lots of elbow room, little pressure. 8 hour days coding or developing at £200 per hour (which is what I currently charge for coding work that's in my spare time). We're looking at close on... I dunno, say £200k if I'm not expected to spend every day of that year coding.

Any less and it's not worth my time taking a year off from my day job.
Dunny is offline  
Old 04 July 2018, 11:04   #524
sandruzzo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Italy/Rome
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaInCorpore View Post
Ok, just tell me how much time and money you need. It's just that simple. However, you can even try to start a "Kickstarter" project. Then make a decision if this is feasible for the task. In fact, no one tried that so far but don't ask me why.
Dunny got the point: market is too limited
sandruzzo is offline  
Old 04 July 2018, 12:44   #525
britelite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Espoo / Finland
Posts: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaInCorpore View Post
Anyway, I was asking for help to port Cho Ren Sha 68k to the Amiga platform but there was no support at all.
Not having seen your original request for help, but did you ask for help with porting the game, as in you have the source code and just need a little help with bugs or something? Or did you mean you wanted someone else to port the game?

EDIT: Ok, I think I found the thread you're referring to. And by a quick glance, looks like you're not asking for help with the Amiga-port, but rather challenging someone else to make one. So no wonder you didn't get much response.

Last edited by britelite; 04 July 2018 at 13:25.
britelite is offline  
Old 04 July 2018, 13:34   #526
roondar
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 512
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaInCorpore View Post
Yeah, sure: monumentally and totally. It seems that you need these superlatives to have an excuse for not having good arcade ports after 30 years.
I'd say that there actually are quite a few pretty good Arcade ports on the Amiga. I'll agree that there are a bunch of rather poor ones as well.

There are also quite a few good games on the Amiga that are very similar to some Arcade games, but not arcade ports. These show that games of those genres could have reached at least those standards, but often didn't (see for instance Lotus VS Outrun).

There are many possible reasons for this, two that spring to mind for me are:

1) it was relatively easy to port an Atari ST game to the Amiga with reasonable results and some developers used this as a cheaper way to get a game out that was still 'good enough' for the time. Many (though not all) of the games we're calling out as poor now where not seen as such back in the day.

Of course, this is also because the number of games on the Amiga that do use the hardware effectively to create better audio/visual results was initially small. Which brings me to point 2:


2) getting good results out of the Amiga hardware is fairly challenging, often requiring custom solutions for the problem at hand. This makes re-use of code much harder and increases developer cost as a result. I'd go so far as saying that most good Amiga games (from a using the hardware properly point of view) were probably single use engines, with new ones made for each new game.

This is not what a publisher of games really wants, especially for lucrative arcade deals. There they want a quick turn around and not spending a 'fortune' each time on developing the optimal engine.

--
As for why there are no bunches of Amiga developers making new arcade ports today... Well, my guess is that the majority of Amiga developers still active either prefer creating demos or moved on to NG Amiga targets. The few that remain quickly (or not so quickly) learn my second point: creating a good Amiga game that performs well and looks & sounds good is not actually that easy (which is not because the hardware is incapable, but because using it well is hard).

Besides, although arcade ports can be nice, they are a fairly thankless task - no matter how close you get, there will always be people expecting even better matches to the original. Making your own game or demo is much nicer, as no expectations to match up with much better hardware exists.

Last edited by roondar; 04 July 2018 at 13:37. Reason: Layout & clarification
roondar is offline  
Old 04 July 2018, 13:39   #527
britelite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Espoo / Finland
Posts: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Besides, although arcade ports can be nice, they are a fairly thankless task - no matter how close you get, there will always be people expecting even better matches to the original. Making your own game or demo is much nicer, as no expectations to match up with much better hardware exists.
Pretty much spot on, at least I personally would rather spend my spare time doing something of my own than spend time porting something. And there's also always the (small) risk of legal trouble when doing unlicensed ports.
britelite is offline  
Old 04 July 2018, 19:46   #528
saimon69
J.M.D - Bedroom Musician

 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: los angeles,ca
Posts: 850
Quote:
As for why there are no bunches of Amiga developers making new arcade ports today... Well, my guess is that the majority of Amiga developers still active either prefer creating demos or moved on to NG Amiga targets. The few that remain quickly (or not so quickly) learn my second point: creating a good Amiga game that performs well and looks & sounds good is not actually that easy (which is not because the hardware is incapable, but because using it well is hard).
I would say more the first one, NG platforms are not exactly full of software as far as i know :/

A demo is indeed an easier task than a game, but that is well known.

For the limited marked i like to suggest my favorite pet peeve, a.k.a. encapsulation in an emulating instance to sell in online storefronts like steam; i know there are licensing problems though...
saimon69 is offline  
Old 04 July 2018, 21:55   #529
mcgeezer
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sunderland, England
Posts: 537
The beauty about arcade ports is that you have a template to work to and thus you can break thr components of thr game down into time.

If u make yiur own game then u incur scope creep unless you are skilled in good game design.

If u want to make money developing games then the Amiga isnt thr platform.
mcgeezer is offline  
Old 05 July 2018, 08:30   #530
AnimaInCorpore
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Willich/Germany
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by britelite View Post
EDIT: Ok, I think I found the thread you're referring to. And by a quick glance, looks like you're not asking for help with the Amiga-port, but rather challenging someone else to make one. So no wonder you didn't get much response.
You‘re right: I was not asking for help on that thread but on the X68000 porting experiment. I thought I did ask for help on both.
AnimaInCorpore is offline  
Old 05 July 2018, 08:32   #531
sandruzzo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Italy/Rome
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaInCorpore View Post
You‘re right: I was not asking for help on that thread but on the X68000 porting experiment. I thought I did ask for help on both.
What kind of game? In my opinion all it's possible it's only a teach demo, to do a whole game is another pair of shoes
sandruzzo is offline  
Old 05 July 2018, 09:30   #532
britelite
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Espoo / Finland
Posts: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaInCorpore View Post
You‘re right: I was not asking for help on that thread but on the X68000 porting experiment. I thought I did ask for help on both.
Anyhow, posting here in the Coders-section would be a better way to attract attention of active coders, if you're in need of help
britelite is offline  
Old 05 July 2018, 18:45   #533
AnimaInCorpore
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Willich/Germany
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandruzzo View Post
What kind of game? In my opinion all it's possible it's only a teach demo, to do a whole game is another pair of shoes
It was Galaga 88 and Pacmania.
AnimaInCorpore is offline  
Old 05 July 2018, 20:04   #534
AnimaInCorpore
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Willich/Germany
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by roondar View Post
Besides, although arcade ports can be nice, they are a fairly thankless task - no matter how close you get, there will always be people expecting even better matches to the original. Making your own game or demo is much nicer, as no expectations to match up with much better hardware exists.
Interesting point. Probably the symptomatic problem of the whole matter.

It seems that porting arcade games of the Amiga era cannot hold the quality standard of what one would expect from the system at all. Simply because the whole task cannot be achieved without a tremendous work and still you're afraid of that the result may be unsatisfactory for many.
AnimaInCorpore is offline  
Old 05 July 2018, 20:37   #535
LeCaravage
Registered User

LeCaravage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: AmigaLand
Posts: 129
Sorry to digress, but, are you going to finish this ? :

[ Show youtube player ]

Kinda impressive. I don't know and I'm not sure if the Amiga 500 (with 512Kb chip ram+ 512 Fake Fast) could achieve this.
LeCaravage is offline  
Old 05 July 2018, 21:22   #536
mcgeezer
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sunderland, England
Posts: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimaInCorpore View Post
It seems that porting arcade games of the Amiga era cannot hold the quality standard of what one would expect from the system at all. Simply because the whole task cannot be achieved without a tremendous work and still you're afraid of that the result may be unsatisfactory for many.
It depends on your definition of 'tremendous'

I coded around 16 to 20 hours per week for 6 months doing Bomb Jack on top of my day job and family. I would not define that as tremendous and the system was able to provide satisfactory results.
mcgeezer is offline  
Old 05 July 2018, 21:28   #537
mcgeezer
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Sunderland, England
Posts: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeCaravage View Post
Sorry to digress, but, are you going to finish this ? :

[ Show youtube player ]

Kinda impressive. I don't know and I'm not sure if the Amiga 500 (with 512Kb chip ram+ 512 Fake Fast) could achieve this.
Yes, but would probably need 1mb chip ram.

On the video the boss at the end struggles to keep going at 50 frames, the Amiga would have no such problem because you could put the system into Dual Playfield mode and shift the monster independently without cookie cutting.
mcgeezer is offline  
Old 05 July 2018, 22:04   #538
saimon69
J.M.D - Bedroom Musician

 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: los angeles,ca
Posts: 850
I would use Tim Follin music for the port, is far superior to the arcade one!!!
saimon69 is offline  
Old 06 July 2018, 10:33   #539
frank_b
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston USA
Posts: 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgeezer View Post
Yes, but would probably need 1mb chip ram.

On the video the boss at the end struggles to keep going at 50 frames, the Amiga would have no such problem because you could put the system into Dual Playfield mode and shift the monster independently without cookie cutting.
How much memory is required for the graphics? This version needs 4 meg of unified memory on an STe. It may exceed even 2 mb of chip RAM for some levels.
Masking performance should be similar on both machines. It's single pass on the STE via a clever blitter "trick".

The original required 12 meg of RAM Monster board (12 meg of blittable address space) or Falcon required!
frank_b is offline  
Old 06 July 2018, 10:57   #540
sandruzzo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Italy/Rome
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank_b View Post
How much memory is required for the graphics? This version needs 4 meg of unified memory on an STe. It may exceed even 2 mb of chip RAM for some levels.
Masking performance should be similar on both machines. It's single pass on the STE via a clever blitter "trick".

The original required 12 meg of RAM Monster board (12 meg of blittable address space) or Falcon required!
With a1200 + 1-2mb of fast you can do it...
sandruzzo is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
general movie discussions gimbal OT - Entertainment 2300 Today 11:24
Japanese Console/Computer RPG discussions Retro-Nerd Retrogaming General Discussion 2 02 April 2009 01:32
Given the recent Scanlines discussions... DamienD request.UAE Wishlist 26 26 April 2007 17:36
Wii Virtual Console / Xbox Live Arcade? killergorilla HOL suggestions and feedback 2 06 March 2007 17:20
Landover's Amiga Arcade Conversion Contest Frog News 1 28 January 2005 23:41

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.11230 seconds with 15 queries