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Old 23 May 2017, 18:59   #41
michaelz
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You get it for free with the latest descent that costs €15.
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Old 23 May 2017, 19:13   #42
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They do, however, have plenty of time to harass people (myself included) through PMs.
I don't know what they bothered you about (care telling about it?) but sadly yes, that's what happens, they are just out and about taking shit down unashamedly and harassing people who make work for love of the platform.
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however it ends it will have literally zero consequences. its for the community to get their act together, and cooperate with each other
Exactly what kind of cooperation do you expect to get from a community when a company like Cloanto harasses you over something you have posted online, takes action contacting your host/ISP about it, threatens to initiate legal action against you etc? Is the community willing to provide legal counsel for free to fight that kind of shit? Because I don't see it happening, and having these two disappear would surely be two rocks on our shoes that we can be rid of.

The job of updating/maintaining the operating system can be taken by the community. People from the community like Olaf BArthel are the ones actually doing any work as consultants. We don't need these IP/brand vultures at all. They amount to absolutely nothing in bettering/preserving the Amiga platform, the community as a whole has done a much better job at it than neither of them.
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Old 23 May 2017, 19:21   #43
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Exactly what kind of cooperation do you expect to get from a community
i think you must know my standard answer by now. its nothing particularly original. take aros and build up from there. it solves each and every problem you mention. we just need skilled 68k coders to engage and learn to work collectively. if people like olaf bartel cannot contribute due to contractual obligations or simply because they dont like to, they can still be consulted. in fact thor did roughly consulted few issues once upon a time.
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Old 23 May 2017, 19:28   #44
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i think you must know my standard answer by now. its nothing particularly original. take aros and build up from there.
Yes I understand this part and I agree, is what I mention at the end: we don't need these companies for developing and maintaining the platform.

However that doesn't stop these companies from going to YouTube handing DMCA takedown notices about everything and anything they seem fit, sending threatening emails to websites that mention "Amiga" or use a "Checkmark logo" or whatever, etc. etc. This is a whole other issue and something not as easily resolved. They are not just taking legal action against people that provide Kickstart or WOrkbench for free, be very aware of that. They are doing things like "take down that video on Youtube of the Amiga's launch event", which has fuck all to do with KS/WB and as fair use of a historic event, they should not be allowed to take it down, yet , well, Youtube is a fucking disgrace too.

Developing AROS doesn't solve this matter.
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Old 23 May 2017, 19:42   #45
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what videos are they taking down? what websites mantioning amiga? what gatherings may they prevent?

i mean there is multitude amiga websites, pictures and videos all over the net. then name is being constantly mentioned and even logos are being used. events are being held. there may be some certain issues, but ive only heard of few, actually only in context of the recent threads in here.

other than that they are actually likely within their rights, when demanding pirated software they might own not being hostested openly. dont you think?

anyway, i would circumnavigate all this mess in maximal distance. you cannot even tell when crap may hit the fan again and you ll get accidentally hit just because you were watching too close

for me all this is being solved with aros.

Last edited by wawa; 23 May 2017 at 19:47.
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Old 23 May 2017, 19:50   #46
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The job of updating/maintaining the operating system can be taken by the community. People from the community like Olaf BArthel are the ones actually doing any work as consultants. We don't need these IP/brand vultures at all. They amount to absolutely nothing in bettering/preserving the Amiga platform, the community as a whole has done a much better job at it than neither of them.

Don't forget the community is willing to pay for products, but paying a developer is another story. The "vultures" make the products and pay those developers.

The community would, I think at least, do nothing and accomplish nothing. We wouldn't be able to set a course, we wouldn't be able to define standards, we wouldn't be able to even get a one way to go.

You can say what you want from Cloanto, but they appear to have at least payed some support for AROS and WinUAE. And they developed "AmigaOS" 3.1 into 3.X (there are a number of improvements in there).
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Old 23 May 2017, 20:01   #47
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Don't forget the community is willing to pay for products, but paying a developer is another story.
i think these payments, given they actually happen, may be mostly symbolic, in particular in comparison to an appropriate salary.

as example these days an updated port of a freespace has been published. on a german forum i have heard who actually contributed to this and im not sure if they have been rewarded for their work, at least probably not all of them.

considering this and the other obvious fact, that enterprises do not produce money, they can actually only redistribute some part of their actual income to the developers they contract, it occures to be really more effective and sensible to reward and support the developers directly. the community simply needs to reconsider their attitudes. if one wants progress one should contribute either some work or something which makes this work possible instead of simply be buying gadgets.
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Old 23 May 2017, 20:13   #48
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i think these payments, given they actually happen, may be mostly symbolic, in particular in comparison to an appropriate salary.

as example these days an updated port of a freespace has been published. on a german forum i have heard who actually contributed to this and im not sure if they have been rewarded for their work, at least probably not all of them.

considering this and the other obvious fact, that enterprises do not produce money, they can actually only redistribute some part of their actual income to the developers they contract, it occures to be really more effective and sensible to reward and support the developers directly. the community simply needs to reconsider their attitudes. if one wants progress one should contribute either some work or something which makes this work possible instead of simply be buying gadgets.


I don't say it would be impossible. But most of the people would rather spend money on hardware or a finished product, then pay money to develop something that might not be of their choosing.
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Old 23 May 2017, 20:28   #49
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I don't say it would be impossible. But most of the people would rather spend money on hardware or a finished product, then pay money to develop something that might not be of their choosing.
how do you know if something is of your chosing when you buy something you cannot even try in advance.

at this point it is simply expectation (probably upon your knowledge of something similar) that may be satisfied or not, but by then you have already paid. people simply need to inform themselves about available options better.
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Old 23 May 2017, 21:01   #50
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As for Hyperion being unable to innovate, I was referring to OS4 which still has rough feature parity with an OS that's 19 years old called Windows 98. The current state of OS4 is a mess. The only "updates" that have come out over the past 13 years have been Band-Aid fixes to get it to run on even more scarce and expensive PPC processors and some patches for its still buggy USB support. There have been advances as far as 3D support but those can't be attributed to Hyperion. Still waiting for multi-user support, SMP, and memory protection.....all things that were promised years ago but Hyperion is obviously unable to deliver.....nothing frivolous there.
I'll give you that. Only you stated that in reference to a fight with another party that has given us… WinUAE and a pre-installed Workbench.

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except you constantly defend a party repackaging and selling stuff upon some trademark loyality.
Sorry, I don't have any sentimental attachment to Amiga Inc or AEon or Hyperion. MorphOS, AmigaOS 4, AROS, they all deserve some kind of respect for what they have done. None of those are directly detrimental to the "genuine" Amiga, unlike Cloanto, whom I respect only for Personal Paint.
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Old 23 May 2017, 21:06   #51
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You can say what you want from Cloanto, but they appear to have at least payed some support for AROS and WinUAE. And they developed "AmigaOS" 3.1 into 3.X (there are a number of improvements in there).
Yeah, Cloanto "developed" all right. They "developed" away workbench.library and disabled people's disk drives.

Thanks to Doobrey's utilities, there are a lot of people who can replace scsi.device and remove workbench.library.
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Old 23 May 2017, 21:15   #52
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Yeah, Cloanto "developed" all right. They "developed" away workbench.library and disabled people's disk drives.



Thanks to Doobrey's utilities, there are a lot of people who can replace scsi.device and remove workbench.library.


You really must drink vinegar instead of water. Can you state a positive thing?

I'm really curious how you ever think there will be anything done ever when this is all you can say. Constructive discussions also tends to look at the other side.
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Old 23 May 2017, 21:27   #53
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they developed "AmigaOS" 3.1 into 3.X (there are a number of improvements in there).
The improvements were done by H&P for OS3.5 and 3.9. AmigaOS "3.X" is basically just a crippled version of OS3.5, as Cloanto admit here: https://www.amigaforever.com/kb/15-107
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Old 23 May 2017, 21:31   #54
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Constructive discussions also tends to look at the other side.

so on constructive note, while compiling another debug build of aros68k here, how are your dealings with cloanto as of late, considering that further development initiative? anything moving yet?
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Old 23 May 2017, 21:37   #55
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so on constructive note, while compiling another debug build of aros68k here, how are your dealings with cloanto as of late, considering that further development initiative? anything moving yet?


I had quite constructive talks. But unfortunately there appears to be something that takes Mike Battilana's full attention on this moment. I am trying to get back on track, but I think Hyperion and A-Eon are a bit more pressing for his attention at this moment
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Old 23 May 2017, 22:03   #56
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I had quite constructive talks. But unfortunately there appears to be something that takes Mike Battilana's full attention on this moment. I am trying to get back on track, but I think Hyperion and A-Eon are a bit more pressing for his attention at this moment
mhm. not exactly unexpected. on a positive side though, luckily no effort has been put into this so far, so nothing will be lost.
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Old 23 May 2017, 22:59   #57
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mhm. not exactly unexpected. on a positive side though, luckily no effort has been put into this so far, so nothing will be lost.
Well, there was some effort put into it by me, but that time was given freely. At least it didn't cost money, just some time
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Old 23 May 2017, 23:39   #58
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You really must drink vinegar instead of water. Can you state a positive thing?

I'm really curious how you ever think there will be anything done ever when this is all you can say. Constructive discussions also tends to look at the other side.
No need to get personal, Michaelz. I just find it hard to find anything positive in this debacle, or just about anything relating to the Amiga trademarks and intellectual property.
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Old 24 May 2017, 08:51   #59
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No need to get personal, Michaelz. I just find it hard to find anything positive in this debacle, or just about anything relating to the Amiga trademarks and intellectual property.


But don't forget; there is nearly nobody who acts out of pure individual interests alone. There is always another story that perhaps in the right perspective, is quite solid.

I didn't want to make such a personal statement, but I found your comments very hard and personal towards the companies involved. If we as a community want to get them to be involved, we may need to give them at least some credit. They are after all, trying to do things for us. We are their potential market and we won't buy it (and thus sustain them) if they make absolute crap.
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Old 24 May 2017, 13:32   #60
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If we as a community want to get them to be involved, we may need to give them at least some credit. They are after all, trying to do things for us.
Cloanto have made no improvements to the OS; see my previous post. And selling a freeware emulator is not doing much for the community either.

Hyperion on the other hand have at least tried to improve the OS; I disagree with some of the business and technical decisions they have made and of course the pace of development is disappointing (and I do think OS4 would have likely been better if developed by H&P as per the original plan) but I would not put them in the same basket as Cloanto by any means.
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