Chance to pick up a REAL amiga - worth it?

[desiv]

I prefer my 1084s monitor for Amiga gaming...
Nothing like a CRT for Amiga gaming.. ;-)

I do use a VGA monitor on my A1200, but that's mostly for desk space issues.. I have a KVM so I can share that monitor with my PC, work laptop and Amiga..
My Amiga 1000 happily sits under his 1084s and I use him for quick floppy gaming...

Lots of great options for different people..

desiv

Hey Guys,

First I want to thank everyone for replying - lots of valuable insights here.

I should note that I live in Canada and it is VERY unusual to come across Amiga's around here - This is the first one I have seen locally other than the CD32 I was lucky enough to buy for 80$ a few years back. I do understand where a lot of you are coming from with the A1200 - I really would prefer one of these myself. But, I would likely have to purchase a PAL model, which would then require a video converter, and would have to get all of this shipped overseas... it's really not possible. A 2000 with standard 1.3 kickstart should be able to play just about anything the 500 could, correct? The reason I am asking about so many video options is because I do not have access to SCART or RGB tv's here at all. My CD32 is almost useless because of that fact (despite this I have spent many hours fiddling about with it anyway). I see that there were some accelerator cards suggested that might be worthwhile for this system - how rare/expensive are these? are there any decent modern options for the 2000?

So it seems that the display is likely to cause me the most issues. How long can I expect this 1084 to last if it is currently in working condition? What are the most common problems with them?

Hopefully when I move to London next year I will be able to finally create myself a serious miggy setup, 1200 and all!

[SS454]

Yeah 1.3 is ideal for running games from floppy. And your 1084 will run pretty much forever. Very occasionally flybacks blow but this is rare, and parts are still available, it's not worth worrying about.

The big problem of the 1084 is the front door that covers the dials can break very easily, most are already broken off. just a cosmetic thing.

Originally Posted by john1979

Okay, but that would suggest that display preference is really subjective.

It suggests no such thing. My Trinitrons cannot even keep the picture straight, the left hand side is distorted like a house of mirrors. I both of them are the same model (one has teletext) so I suspect it is a design flaw.

Originally Posted by john1979

Display accuracy is one thing, but it's got to be pleasing to the viewer as well. The two don't always go hand in hand.

What is accuracy anyway? Some would suggest a scandoubler and an LCD monitor while others suggest old school monitors like a 1084 whilst I suggest a CRT TV? Accuracy of display itself could be said to be subjective too.

You have to be kidding me now.

Accuracy is self explanatory.

If the signal source is 50Hz, and 60Hz is displayed, it is converted. To do that kind of conversion means either duplicating frames, combing/pulldown, blurring multiple frames together, or all three. It introduces visual artifacts and jerkiness that was not there in the source, and is therefore inaccurate. It is a misrepresentation of the computer's intent. Anything that deviates from what the computer is doing is inaccurate.

If the image is scaled, you get a similar problem. 256 pixels scaled to for example, 720p would be a scale factor of x2.8125. What exactly is 0.8125 of a pixel? At this point you may as well use composite, it is a far cheaper way of getting roughly equivalent quality.

I could go on about say, the GBS's awful sampling, but I won't bother. As I said it's a dead topic, the 1084 he'll get is the best.

[desiv]

Originally Posted by Critic

So it seems that the display is likely to cause me the most issues. How long can I expect this 1084 to last if it is currently in working condition? What are the most common problems with them?!

My 1084s is still going strong, so how long?? Who knows...
That said, I have a spare one.. ;-)

As for most common problem, the dreaded flyback transformer. When that blows, it's basically adios monitor.. ;-(

Also, some people have had broken power buttons, which they usually fix by wiring ON all the time and using a power strip to turn it on/off..

As for the GBS, it's not incredible, but unless you are very exacting, it's not bad for $30. ;-)
It's not Indivision by any stretch, but did I mention it's $30.. ;-)
You get what you pay for..

Another option would be an RGB to s-video adapter (is Kipper2k still selling the ones he makes, he's in Canada..).
I have an Amiga s-video adapter and the quality is really really good (yeah, not RGB, but it's good), but that means you need an s-video device..
Note: some commodore monitors (1701/1084s, at least some models) take s-video via 2 RCA jacks, so you just need a cable adapter.. Of course, if you have a 1084s, you shouldn't need s-video with it.. ;-)

desiv

Originally Posted by desiv

My 1084s is still going strong, so how long?? Who knows...
That said, I have a spare one.. ;-)

As for most common problem, the dreaded flyback transformer. When that blows, it's basically adios monitor.. ;-(

Also, some people have had broken power buttons, which they usually fix by wiring ON all the time and using a power strip to turn it on/off..

As for the GBS, it's not incredible, but unless you are very exacting, it's not bad for $30. ;-)
It's not Indivision by any stretch, but did I mention it's $30.. ;-)
You get what you pay for..

Another option would be an RGB to s-video adapter (is Kipper2k still selling the ones he makes, he's in Canada..).
I have an Amiga s-video adapter and the quality is really really good (yeah, not RGB, but it's good), but that means you need an s-video device..
Note: some commodore monitors (1701/1084s, at least some models) take s-video via 2 RCA jacks, so you just need a cable adapter.. Of course, if you have a 1084s, you shouldn't need s-video with it.. ;-)

desiv

Hey Desiv,

Thanks for replying. It seems the consensus on the GBS ranges from unusable to *decent* and decent is really all I need. Does anyone have a picture of one of those running on a standard LCD monitor? I replaced a flyback on an arcade CRT i had quite a while back, is the board itself removable from the monitor or would you have to work around it? (I'm not skilled enough for that). I have a decent TV with s-video, does Kipper run a store or should I PM him to see if he has any available?

Thanks again!

Critic

[Retrofan]

Now I'm wondering about the s-video adapters. Reading Kipper's web:

"This Svideo adapter will connect to the 23 pin RGB video port on all Amigas and allow you to take advantage of your TV/Monitor Svideo input. Svideo gives a picture quality equal to Scart and is switchable between PAL and NTSC systems. Composite output is fuzzy, but better than RF output".

I've got an S-video adapter from Amigamaniac from a lot of time ago -never used-. My new Full-Hd Tv hasn't got S-video, but it really seems you get the same using an scart cable the kind Amigakit sells.

[desiv]

Originally Posted by Retrofan

but it really seems you get the same using an scart cable the kind Amigakit sells.

Yep. but not all of us have SCART as an option...

As for my GBS, sorry no good pics handy.
I have this one:


That shows a bit of it running LED STORM (doesn't show off anything good), but I centered on the GBS itself.
Also, ignore the wire going into the A520. I used that initially (gutted it for it's DB23) until I bought a DB23 just for the GBS.
Now I have my Amigamaniac s-video adapter in the A520. ;-)

One issue with the s-video adapters is that you have the same NTSC/PAL issues that you would have with composite. That can be a REAL PAIN. That's the main reason to have a true monitor (or RGB to VGA solution that scales up).

As for the flyback, it can be replaced, but I think it's not easy to get the part anymore.. Easier to get another monitor.

desiv
(If you don't want to buy a DB23, you can take a DB25 (much easier to find or probably have one lying around) and cut it up to make it fit the DB23)
p.s. Here's a post with some pics: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=759262&postcount=16 (not mine)
(ooohhh.. Those aren't good pics.. bad example.. but he says that in the post... ;-)
Ah, better. Here's a vid.. [ Show youtube player ]
(Funny, it's on an Amiga 3000, which doesn't need one.. ;-)

Originally Posted by desiv

One issue with the s-video adapters is that you have the same NTSC/PAL issues that you would have with composite. That can be a REAL PAIN. That's the main reason to have a true monitor (or RGB to VGA solution that scales up).

As for the flyback, it can be replaced, but I think it's not easy to get the part anymore.. Easier to get another monitor.

desiv
(If you don't want to buy a DB23, you can take a DB25 (much easier to find or probably have one lying around) and cut it up to make it fit the DB23)
p.s. Here's a post with some pics: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=759262&postcount=16 (not mine)
(ooohhh.. Those aren't good pics.. bad example.. but he says that in the post... ;-)
Ah, better. Here's a vid.. [ Show youtube player ]
(Funny, it's on an Amiga 3000, which doesn't need one.. ;-)

Will I be crucified for saying that the display from the GBS looks fine, borderline good? Thanks for showing me that. It certainly seems like a viable option. When RGB is being run through that to VGA I won't encounter PAL/NTSC issues, correct? That's a real killer for me. It is very difficult to get anything PAL to work on the displays available without spending 150$ on a decent upconverter (and in that case you need a pal system, which I don't believe this is). I think I am sold on this system. I will eventually upgrade to a 1200 so i can play AGA games, but for now I think I will have a ton of fun fiddling about with it.

Am i better off buying an original amiga mouse or going for a PS/2 to Amiga adapter? Amigakit seems to sell a ton of cool stuff that I could use to refine this system. Also, would the RAM expansion cards that kipper sells ( http://kipper2k.com/amigaforsale/ ) work on a stock 2000? Do I need to add my own ram chips to this? Would that be sufficient to run WHDload games from a CF card?

I really appreciate you guys answering my endless barrage of questions. This is a great forum, and I hope to be able to contribute once I learn enough about my system!

Critic

[desiv]

Originally Posted by Critic

When RGB is being run through that to VGA I won't encounter PAL/NTSC issues, correct?

Correct...
The only "issues" I have with PAL/NTSC is making sure the screen is centered properly. I think on one of them, I have a bit of space at the bottom of the screen, but I might have fixed that playing with the controls on the GBS. I don't recall it bothering me recently, so I either fixed it or ignore it. ;-)

I do have some white dots on the screen sometimes. I only notice it with dark screens, and even then not too much. (Not sure if it might be the cheapo walwart power supply I'm using. I've heard of people have issues with cheap power supplies)
It's not perfect, but for the money, I'm happy with it.
I'd be much happier with an Indivision MK2, but my wallet wouldn't be.. ;-)
There are some people tho who haven't had good experiences, so YMMV.

As for Amigakit, they are evil!! It's because of them that my wallet is as empty as it is!!!!! Stay away!!
Unless you want to buy kual stuff for you Amiga and support a great company. ;-)

I'd check with Kipper (there is a thread here for his RAM/CF card in the Hardware section) on the 2000 compatibility. I don't see why it wouldn't work, but not sure...
You don't need to add your own RAM chips. 8M is plenty for virtually all WHDLoad games. 4M is plenty for almost all of them really..

Enjoy!

desiv

[mc6809e]

I used an Atari ST monitor for a while. Rewiring the connector was relatively easy. Looked very superior to the 1084, though the monitor is very small.
<p>If you're really desperate maybe you can't find one.

[SS454]

Originally Posted by Critic

Will I be crucified for saying that the display from the GBS looks fine, borderline good? Thanks for showing me that. It certainly seems like a viable option.

It's not mate. Games run in low res, which it can handle. But it's still a braindead upscaler so mangles the pixels at anything above that.

Originally Posted by Critic

When RGB is being run through that to VGA I won't encounter PAL/NTSC issues, correct? That's a real killer for me. It is very difficult to get anything PAL to work on the displays available without spending 150$ on a decent upconverter (and in that case you need a pal system, which I don't believe this is).

You will still have PAL/NTSC problems with the actual machine. Agnus is different, and the clock speeds. I don't know how successful forcing a 2000/500 into a different region mode is. The 3000 just has a jumper for it.

The 1084 that comes with it can handle both PAL and NTSC modes.

Originally Posted by Critic

Am i better off buying an original amiga mouse or going for a PS/2 to Amiga adapter? Amigakit seems to sell a ton of cool stuff that I could use to refine this system. Also, would the RAM expansion cards that kipper sells ( http://kipper2k.com/amigaforsale/ ) work on a stock 2000? Do I need to add my own ram chips to this? Would that be sufficient to run WHDload games from a CF card?

I'd be surprised if the 2000 didn't have a mouse already. But Either PS/2 converter or a proper one should be fine. Some don't like the commodore tank design (i don't) but there are others. The amiga technologies one is still available new on ebay and stuff for under £20, last I looked.


That new expansion card of Kipper's looks a beast! 4 or 8 mb, built in IDE compact flash...

No, you won't need to add ram chips. All his stuff is ready made. The only thing is that card, hmm, I don't know if it will mechanically fit the 2000, even he doesn't. It probably needs a simple adapter, which you could build even from components, if you feel like soldering (it is easy!)

To be honest that board needs a couple wires soldering to motherboard anyway. So not a big problem to build a passive adapter.

To use the CF slot, you will need a ROM upgrade to 2.05. 3.1 would also work, but it is noticeably slower. They built A2000s for years and years, so it might already have it. Anything after 1990 should.

So that card + homemade adapter + (maybe) new rom chip will be enough for WHDLoad, but does not solve the NTSC issue.

I think switching between PAL/NTSC is going to be the bigger issue. It is easier depending on Agnus chip version, others can tell you all about it.

[ajk]

Many replies here already, but I'll add my own observations While I have the possibility to just use RGB SCART cables here, I've also got the s-video adapter from AmigaManiac. I've made test video captures from all three (composite, s-video, RGB):

Composite



S-video



RGB



By far the larger difference is going from composite to s-video; as the luma and chroma signals are separated, you get a greyscale picture nearly as good as with RGB, but colours of similar brightness still get blurred (in technical terms the chroma bandwidth is small). With RGB of course the image is perfect.

If you can get a CRT TV with s-video input for a good price, it would in my opinion do absolutely fine for games and still be decent for at least Workbench usage. And you could also use the CD32 with it.

[SS454]

Or he could use the 1084 that comes with the 2000.

[ajk]

Certainly - but the question was what are the alternatives if/when it ceases to work.

[desiv]

Originally Posted by SS454

It's not mate. Games run in low res, which it can handle. But it's still a braindead upscaler so mangles the pixels at anything above that.

Again, while I believe that is true, the actual judgement on whether or not that affect is a problem is very user specific. Some people hate it.. Others don't mind.
I've said it before and I'll say again, it's no Indivision, but I don't mind it at all and think it's fine for the price.. There are other people who feel that way. And there are other people who hate them. That's why I posted that video link...
(That said, I DO prefer my 1084s.. But that's more about CRT vs LCD)

Originally Posted by SS454

You will still have PAL/NTSC problems with the actual machine. Agnus is different, and the clock speeds. I don't know how successful forcing a 2000/500 into a different region mode is. The 3000 just has a jumper for it.

That's a good point...
You need newer Agnus to be able to switch to PAL on an NTSC machine (or vice versa), however "newer" is a relative term. ;-) That's the FAT (not fatter) Agnus I believe..
There is software that you can use to switch to PAL, or if you have Kickstart 3.x (only 3.x?) you can do that in the early boot menu...
The A2000 might already have that Agnus, but I'm not sure how you'd tell without looking at the chip..
My A500 came with the 1M Agnus in it, so I could do that.
The clock speed issue can't easily be fixed. Games run at different speeds.
That said, it's something I was used to from using my A1200 to play PAL games back in the day, so it's what I'm used to.. ;-)

Originally Posted by SS454

To use the CF slot, you will need a ROM upgrade to 2.05.

That is for the autoboot, although you should be able to use the CF card with a 1.3 ROM if you have a boot floppy that manually loads the scsi.device that supports it, shouldn't you???

desiv

[SS454]

Yes you could load the scsi device from floppy, buuuut...

WHDLoad doesn't work with 1.x. So you'd be stuck on floppy games, though I don't think that is too big a hassle.

Transfare game .adf to cf card with winuae, wire .adf to disk, hey presto!

But I think if you wanted to do that, is best to ask someone to burn a 1.3 rom with the SCSI device already in it.

What I think is important is to find out exactly what this 2000 is. Could be a junk german motherboard with only 512k chipram and bad slots. Or it could be someone's 68030 Video toaster with SCSI. Who knows!

[commodorejohn]

Originally Posted by Critic

A 2000 with standard 1.3 kickstart should be able to play just about anything the 500 could, correct?

Yep. They're basically the exact same hardware, except that the 2000 has Zorro slots.

I see that there were some accelerator cards suggested that might be worthwhile for this system - how rare/expensive are these? are there any decent modern options for the 2000?

Accelerators for the 500/2000 go for pretty cheap since all the fanatics prefer an ECS or AGA system. For a real performance boost, you'll want something with on-board RAM, but even, say, a Supra Turbo 28 will make an improvement as long as you've got a few MB of fast RAM in the system.

So it seems that the display is likely to cause me the most issues. How long can I expect this 1084 to last if it is currently in working condition? What are the most common problems with them?

I can't speak to common problems, because every 1084 I've owned has worked like new! They're built well.

Hey guys,

The advice keeps coming! I managed to get a couple pictures of the motherboard. When you say I will still encounter PAL/NTSC issues with the actual machine, do you mean CD32 level problems? I am aware some games will run too fast/slow, but will it be the case that 80% of software simply won't run on the system, even with the software 50/60hz change? I was under the impression that the system could be "tricked" into thinking it was running PAL even if it was not. I know those shots are fairly zoomed out, but the system seems as empty as it can be (but clean!). Are they close enough to get a little more information about the board?

Lots of little difficulties keep popping up - part of the fun....

[desiv]

That's a clean looking machine..
Looks to be an early-ish 2000, so it might have the original Agnus.
If it does, it means that when you run PAL games, you will be running them in NTSC mode and that isn't good.. I wouldn't say 80% won't run, but it's not where you want to be..

You really want to be able to flip to PAL mode..
Of course, if it did have the old Agnus, you could pretty easily swap it out. It should be pretty cheap, if you can't find someone who has one..
But, if you're going to swap out the Agnus and Kickstart (not required, but the early boot menu to swap to PAL and the autobooting for CF is very nice), you might want to start adding up what it will cost to get you to where you want to be..

That said, if it's a good deal and local, it might still be worth it, as shipping on those monitors is usually a killer..

I'm not familiar with the 2000's so I'm not sure where the Agnus chip is, but from those pics, I'm guessing under the floppy drive. That would make it tricky to tell easily what it has..

desiv

[wanderer]

Originally Posted by edd_jedi

I don't understand why anybody would suggest an A500 as a gaming machine, you can't play AGA games on it which rules out a lot of the best ones (most games from 1993 onwards.) So for me the choice for a gaming machine is either an A1200 or A4000, the only two AGA Amigas (or a CD32 of course, which is basically an A1200.)

Well said. Of course, most of the games are OCS, including some of the very best, but the idea to miss out on AGA and stuff like this is unacceptable.