Why are platform games on the Amiga really mediocre?

[Retro-Nerd]

Tales of Phantasia. A JAP-only game, so better get an SFC and learn Japanese.

Bah. Completed it in German years ago.

The chip itself, maybe, but the Amiga hardware doesn't take 100% use of its capabilities... Imagine SPC700 with 1024kB memory... See?
Even though you can crunch up paula to over 50kHz, 12-bit 2 channel, it WILL sound a bit rubbish. I've played several 44kHz high-quality WAVs on my Amiga 1200 for testing. It sure is good for being such an old chip, but it's not anything special. Besides, we're pretty much discussing the game music, aren't we? Mention an Amiga game running 32kHz 8 channels... Good luck.

What have WAVs to do with Amiga chip tunes?

[Graham Humphrey]

More to the point... what does this all have to do with platformers?

May have to lock this thread soon.

[Hungry Horace]

Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy

The chip itself, maybe, but the Amiga hardware doesn't take 100% use of its capabilities... Imagine SPC700 with 1024kB memory... See?

no, that doesnt make sense. the chip (hardware) can do it but the hardware doesnt?

i'm not talking about using 12-bit here. but high frequency 8-bit sound. what matters is how the capabilites of the hardware are used (by programmers) and have very little to do with the hardware specs.

Besides, we're pretty much discussing the game music, aren't we?

No, i'm talking about audible quality, not compositional style. Whilst 16-bit playback is preferable, Paula is still incredibly capable in 8-bit modes.

Originally Posted by Graham Humphrey

More to the point... what does this all have to do with platformers?

good point. sorry about that - didnt see that the thread could go any further off-topic though!

[Retro-Nerd]

Or you could put the last 3 thread pages in a "SNES vs Amiga vs Mega Drive" thread.

[8bitbubsy]

Originally Posted by Hungry Horace

no, that doesnt make sense. the chip (hardware) can do it but the hardware doesnt?

Indeed. I'm talking about the buses and the horsepower in a stock Amiga 1200 and 500. You sure can go a bit higher in frequency on the Amiga 1200, but still. If you put paula alone on a hardware pcb and use it as a DSP, then you can get wonderful sounds.

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Bah. Completed it in German years ago.

On the GBA, maybe... It was only released in JP for the SNES, PSX and PSP.. Although for GBA you had English and so on.

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

What have WAVs to do with Amiga chip tunes?

I was being too quick on the trigger. I thought Hungry Horace talked about an app able to crunch opp Paula. Then I realized it indeed was a game. My mistake, I see that my comparison was utterly inrelevant!

[Retro-Nerd]

Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy

On the GBA, maybe... It was only released in JP for the SNES, PSX and PSP.. Although for GBA you had English and so on.

Nope. There is SNES fan patch in German.

[8bitbubsy]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Nope. There is SNES fan patch in German.

Yeah, but it's not like that's official stuff. If you use emulator or patch the ROM and flash it over to a cart, you sure can play it in English. Oh well. I should stop this off-topic stuff, before I get banned.

[Dastardly]

Originally Posted by Graham Humphrey

More to the point... what does this all have to do with platformers?

May have to lock this thread soon.

Please don't.

[Mogilny]

Keep the thread running, as long as they don't start going ad hominem imo. It's both enjoyable and interesting to read.

[Graham Humphrey]

I'll leave it open as long as it stays somewhere round the topic it's meant to from here on in.

[Dastardly]

What difference does it make whether it's on topic or not? It's an organic discussion which has turned into a debate on another subject. As long as it doesn't descend into name calling then what's the problem? I'm sure when the debate is over it will return to the original topic.

I for one am really enjoying the thread AND the debate that has emerged.

[TCD]

Okay, while we're at it, can someone explain me why the Cannon Fodder title tune sounds that awful on the SNES with the superior sound HW? Won't revive the Gods topic again, but... you know

[Dastardly]

Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid

Won't revive the Gods topic again, but... you know

Where was that? I must have missed it. Link?

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Dastardly

Where was that? I must have missed it. Link?

There you go : http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=37354

[8bitbubsy]

Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid

Okay, while we're at it, can someone explain me why the Cannon Fodder title tune sounds that awful on the SNES with the superior sound HW? Won't revive the Gods topic again, but... you know

Good question. Maybe because of the heavy use of large samples, albeit the SNES' sound RAM is 64kB? I guess they needed to turn the quality of the samples down a whole lot!

[Retro-Nerd]

Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy

Good question. Maybe because of the heavy use of large samples, albeit the SNES' sound RAM is 64kB? I guess they needed to turn the quality of the samples down a whole lot!

Plus it misses the "lovely" voice of Jon Hare. Yes, probably a lack of sound ram.

[TCD]

Didn't Dan say that you could easily overcome that problem by using the cartrigde rom memory? The original song has under 256 KB, so that isn't that much

@Retro
They used all the screams the game has to offer instead

[Retro-Nerd]

Allister Brimble did the SNES sound. I'm sure he could do it a lot better, but the SNES gave him some "limitations" as it seems.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Alister Brimble did the SNES sound. I'm sure he could do it a lot better, but the SNES gave him some "limitations" as it seems.

Now that sounds like an explantion to me

[8bitbubsy]

Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid

Didn't Dan say that you could easily overcome that problem by using the cartrigde rom memory? The original song has under 256 KB, so that isn't that much

Well, that wouldn't be easy! Remember that the sound CPU can't read directly from the mapped cart ROM The main CPU need to move it first.
First, you say to the CPU that it should send the music data (player code, pattern + samples) to the sound RAM... I think the sound RAM is mapped as a $0000-$FFFF (65535) range somewhere in the local SNES RAM... Then you need to tell the sound CPU to get his ass off the couch and start processing the data (for a normal "tracker like" player: read patterns, update channels, mix it)... Then the sound DSP filters and converts the mixed sound to analog output and sends it to the outter world for pure pleasure!

The problem here is that the sound CPU is always processing the code in sound RAM... So dropfeeding new samples etc is an advanced thing to do... You have to make sure that the stored sound sample of choice is done playing (precise timing), then you can read the new one from cart_address + sample_offset to sound_ram_address + sample_offset, quick as hell.. (or some other smart way, all depending on your player code). "Why not tell the sound CPU to read the sample from another memory address?" Because you only have 64kB, d'oh!!
Another problem is the limitation of controlling the sound CPU... I think you can only access it through an 8 bit bus, which makes the whole thing even more of a pain!

But! If you don't need to dropfeed samples (e.g. just live with the 64kB limitation), it's all good and nice.