new amiga 500 doom like !

[KK/Altair]

Originally Posted by malko

@KK/Altair : I am quite sure the last comment you have quoted was not for you

Maybe, but it still applies. I'm not exactly known for finishing projects, and I don't want to disappoint anyone willing to help.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

Great suggestion! I'm quite sure I could live with BC->D as well. But are you sure the Blitter doesn't get the bus on the extra cycle?

I can confirm the Blitter does not get the extra cycle for this type of blit. Even better for this scenario, neither does bitplane DMA - the idle cycle can be freely used by the CPU.

Recently there was a discussion on this and Toni clarified it here: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=221

[chb]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

Great suggestion! I'm quite sure I could live with BC->D as well. But are you sure the Blitter doesn't get the bus on the extra cycle?

Idle cycles are cycles the blitter cannot use and are left to the cpu, if requested by it and not used by any other higher priority dma. It gets more complicated because a blitter idle cycle can only occur if there is no higher priority dma; otherwise the blitter has to wait with its idle cycleuntil no higher priority dma is going on, even if it does not access memory.

I'll try to do an estimate in more detail. Let's suppose we have code that is memory limited (takes every second mem cycles) e.g. a move.b d(Ax),(Ay)+ sequence for texture scaling. So CPU only would be

         0       4       8       12      16      20     
CPU      C - C - C - C - C - C - C - C - C -

Then with AB->D and non-blitter nasty (r is cycle requested by cpu, x cycle granted by blitter to CPU):

         0       4       8       12      16      20     
CPU      r r r C - r r r C - r r r C - r r r C
Blitter  B B B x B B B B x B B B B x B B B B x

With a blit like BC->D that contains an idle cycle for three mem cycles taken:

         0       4       8       12      16      20 
CPU      r r r C - r r C - r r C - r r C - r r C
Blitter  B B B I B B B I B B B I B B B I B B B I

So the in the first example, it is one CPU mem access every five memory cycles, in the second every four, so the code runs 20% faster (while the blitter is slowed down accordingly). Situation is more complicated if other dma is active however (I hope I got this right, it's slightly complicated):
no idle, 4 bpl dma

         0       4       8       12      16      20      24      
Disp     D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D -
CPU      r r r C - r r r - C - r r r - C - r r r - C - r
Blitter  - B - x - B - B - x - B - B - x - B - B - x - B

idle 4 bpl dma:

         0       4       8       12      16      20      24      
Disp     D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D - D -
CPU      r r r C - r r r - C - r r r - C - r r C - r r r
Blitter  - B - x - B - B - I - B - B - x - B - I - B - B

As one can see, during display dma the difference is very small, because due to bitplane DMA the CPU usually has waited long enough to get bus access granted before an idle cycle occurs. The problem is that you may not be able to use the blitter idle cycles with the cpu perfectly (e.g. you run instructions that are not memory limited), then they will be wasted.

So after that back-of-a-slightly-bigger-envelope calculation, I'm not sure if it is worth it; but it is a very small modification to the code, and you can always check with the winuae dma debugger, or just benchmark.

And please excuse me for clogging your thread with lengthy posts containing untested ideas.

[NovaCoder]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

Maybe, but it still applies. I'm not exactly known for finishing projects, and I don't want to disappoint anyone willing to help.

If you are going to target a stock A500 then maybe you should consider reducing the screen height to increase frame rate?

I did the same kind thing to increase performance of my Quake 2 port to AGA.

If you use a Doom style status bar at the bottom of the screen and a smaller one at the top then you could get away with a 320x180 or maybe 320x160 pixel 3D viewport.

[KK/Altair]

Blitter B B B x B B B B x B B B B x B B B B x

I'm pretty sure the Blitter can only ever access memory in cycles of certain parity, with remaining ones either dedicated to internal operations or idle. So, a simple AB->D blit would last for 6 bus cycles, making 3 bus accesses during that time.

So the AB->D no-display example really becomes:

         0       4       8       12      16      20     
CPU      r C - C - C - C - C - C - C - C - C -
Blitter  B - B - B - B - B - B - B - B - B - B

So, AFAIK, when there are no other devices competing for memory, CPU could skip a cycle to align perfectly with the cycles inaccessible to Blitter. Then both are running full speed and the nasty bit doesn't even matter (until scanline hits cycles reserved exclusively for FDD and audio).



Your display-on diagrams are in agreement with my knowledge so far, because 4bpp display uses only the cycles the Blitter can't use.

but it is a very small modification to the code

Well, this part is done in asm and the controlling code is split in multiple parts that get launched from IRQ, making even small modifications quite nasty.

And please excuse me for clogging your thread with lengthy posts containing untested ideas

On the contrary - keep them coming.

If you are going to target a stock A500 then maybe you should consider reducing the screen height to increase frame rate?

I'm not sure this would be a clean win. You'd probably have to cut height by 25% to start feeling the difference at all, which would be quite a lot.

I did the same kind thing to increase performance of my Quake 2 port to AGA.

Nice. Great work on that.

If you use a Doom style status bar at the bottom of the screen and a smaller one at the top then you could get away with a 320x180 or maybe 320x160 pixel 3D viewport.

Might be worth a try. I was also considering adding option to just reduce screen size, but this would also scale things and reduce already limited readability.

[Tigerskunk]

@chb: Super interesting post. Thanks..!

[chb]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

I'm pretty sure the Blitter can only ever access memory in cycles of certain parity, with remaining ones either dedicated to internal operations or idle. So, a simple AB->D blit would last for 6 bus cycles, making 3 bus accesses during that time.

So the AB->D no-display example really becomes:

         0       4       8       12      16      20     
CPU      r C - C - C - C - C - C - C - C - C -
Blitter  B - B - B - B - B - B - B - B - B - B

So, AFAIK, when there are no other devices competing for memory, CPU could skip a cycle to align perfectly with the cycles inaccessible to Blitter. Then both are running full speed and the nasty bit doesn't even matter (until scanline hits cycles reserved exclusively for FDD and audio).

What you described is true for D-only blits (see the HRM for details). AB->D can use every available memory cycle, apart from the first cycles when the pipeline is filled, and the last, when it's emptied.

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

Well, this part is done in asm and the controlling code is split in multiple parts that get launched from IRQ, making even small modifications quite nasty.

Ah, pity. I guess it's not really worth to try then, as the improvement is questionable - it might even get slower.

[KK/Altair]

Originally Posted by chb

Ah, pity. I guess it's not really worth to try then, as the improvement is questionable - it might even get slower.

It's still something I'd like to do. Even more, when you have corrected my thinkig about Blitter timing a bit.

[utri007]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

It's still something I'd like to do. Even more, when you have corrected my thinkig about Blitter timing a bit.

Anything new about your awesome project?

[lesta_smsc]

Excellent work @KK/Altair !

What an accomplishment! Clever coding can make all the difference. Only today I was reading about S3TC and how it changed the potential for the S3 graphics card compared to its rivals at the time - made Unreal textures look incredible.

Keep up the good work and looking forward to further developments!

[KK/Altair]

Originally Posted by utri007

Anything new about your awesome project?

Just right now I've managed to record myself making two first rooms of the demo level, and now I've got about 40 minutes of material to work on (cut/speed up the boring parts, remove breaths, yyy...'s and such). And probably voiceover some parts. I'd really love to start sharing some "making of" videos, but as I've never done such thing _ever_, I'm really nervous and have to learn a lot in the process. But everybody has to start somewhere and hopefully it will be worth it.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

Just right now I've managed to record myself making two first rooms of the demo level, and now I've got about 40 minutes of material to work on (cut/speed up the boring parts, remove breaths, yyy...'s and such). And probably voiceover some parts. I'd really love to start sharing some "making of" videos, but as I've never done such thing _ever_, I'm really nervous and have to learn a lot in the process. But everybody has to start somewhere and hopefully it will be worth it.

Don't worry about it.
People tends to over-criticizes themself (how they sound, or appear), while other people don't even noticed . Breaths are natural, don't over-remove them. Boring parts people can skip on youtube by a single click, and maybe someone will find those parts informative.
Don't know what software you're editing in, I can help you if you're using Adobe Premiere, or After Effects (though, cutting clip in After is tedious).

Just wanna say... relax... and don't worry too much and put too much effort... it will be good.

If you need a logo intro/outro or something, let me know, I can quickly create something.

[KK/Altair]

Don't worry about it.
People tends to over-criticizes themself (how they sound, or appear), while other people don't even noticed . Breaths are natural, don't over-remove them.

Easier said, than done, for the first-timer. But thankfully I got to the point where I quite like how my recorded voice sounds, which should make things a lot easier.

Boring parts people can skip on youtube by a single click, and maybe someone will find those parts informative.

Yes, but you don't really want to watch WinUAE boot for the 10th time (with me not saying anything at the moment) or me trying to get a sector in a correct position, so such parts could skipped or "timelapsed" (respectively). Also I expect that some parts might require voice re-recording, but as you suggest, I don't want to put too much effort in it - I'd love to get to the point where I can do weekly updates, so the process should be as simple as possible.

Don't know what software you're editing in, I can help you if you're using Adobe Premiere, or After Effects (though, cutting clip in After is tedious).

Thanks a lot for help offer, but I have to learn that anyway. I still haven't decided which software to use. I've used Hit Film once to make a demoreel and it was easy to use. I'm considering learning DaVinci Resolve, as I found out it allows recording voiceovers (which Hit Film does not).

If you need a logo intro/outro or something, let me know, I can quickly create something.

That would be a complete overkill. YouTube videos can do just fine without intro/outro and better focus on the project and how to go public with it.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

Thanks a lot for help offer, but I have to learn that anyway. I still haven't decided which software to use. I've used Hit Film once to make a demoreel and it was easy to use. I'm considering learning DaVinci Resolve, as I found out it allows recording voiceovers (which Hit Film does not).

You can record voice over with a potato, these days , so I don't think you should choose editing apps and consider if it can record sound or not. There's a billion small and free apps that can do that, I even think, Windows have its own small app for that.
Heck, there's even online recording, where you record, and download from the site directly:
Maybe this.
https://online-voice-recorder.com

Davinci resolve, yeah, I've heard its an awesome app... still, you don't need some advanced color correcting options, or tracking features, so in your place, I'd just use some small editing app, without million options that will confuse me, and that I don't need.
That Hit Film sound cool, and you're used to it... I'd go for it.

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

That would be a complete overkill. YouTube videos can do just fine without intro/outro and better focus on the project and how to go public with it.

Up to you mate.
The idea was just a quick 4-5 sec, something like:
KK/Altair
making of
... or whatever you want written
bum bum bum opening .... and regular video starts

Cheers!

[KK/Altair]

You can record voice over with a potato, these days , so I don't think you should choose editing apps and consider if it can record sound or not. There's a billion small and free apps that can do that, I even think, Windows have its own small app for that.

I'm using Studio Projects B1 microphone to record (which I've got to learn singing, but that's another story) and recorded voice directly in the OBS while I was doing things. But it was recorded live, so I expect at last some things to require fixing. It would be best if I could record the fixes directly in the software used for video editing, which should make things quicker and easier. Otherwise I can record in FL Studio, which even features a video player (so I know what I'm working with), but using a single tool is usually better than switching between two. I'm just looking for a quickest way to handle all this, so I can make video updates easily in the future.

Davinci resolve, yeah, I've heard its an awesome app... still, you don't need some advanced color correcting options, or tracking features, so in your place, I'd just use some small editing app, without million options that will confuse me, and that I don't need.
That Hit Film sound cool, and you're used to it... I'd go for it.

I'd like to give DaVinci a try first. I don't have anything against learning new stuff.

Up to you mate.
The idea was just a quick 4-5 sec, something like:
KK/Altair
making of
... or whatever you want written
bum bum bum opening .... and regular video starts

That's probably a good idea. And something I could simply make in PowerPoint in plain text and just add to the video. No need for anything more fancy right now.

[Marchie]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

I'd like to give DaVinci a try first. I don't have anything against learning new stuff.

Definitely give it a try, Resolve is great (and, most importanlty, FREE!). I switched from Premiere a couple of years ago and never looked back.

Really keen to see some more video of this project, keep up the great work!

[invent]

Thanks Marchie for the Resolve tip, looking into it.

KK/Altair, awesome work and appreciate you being so open to all the feedback people have been sending.

[KK/Altair]

Resolve works great so far. I'm still learning, but I managed to get through first ~4:45 of source material cutting it to 2:50. It's quite hard to explain and work at the same time, so I found myself making many pauses, and you probably don't want to watch me fumbling e.g. with file folders, so such things can be cut out. I think that 20:00 final length would be right for the amount of content I have here.

I'll process a few minutes more and post an unlisted link so you can asses the quality (or lack of).

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

Resolve works great so far. I'm still learning, but I managed to get through first ~4:45 of source material cutting it to 2:50.

When I worked on a TV as editor, some basic rule was "raw material is at least 3 times bigger then final cut"... but then again, I had luck to work with such an amazing camera guys, and they would record every single shot in a perfect way, and using their shots could probably minimize that to 2/1.
From the other side, movie Braveheart had over a 100 hours recorded raw materials that was edited to 2 hours movie.

Anyway, the most simple workflow I could think of is this:
1) Basic idea/tutorial that you want to show - show it, and record. (additionally, I'd record "cover shots", like: fingers typing on keyboard, picture on the wall, glint of light on my glasses, when camera capture my face from the other side.. paper that I' am writing something... etc), and voice over.

2) I'd then cut all my shots to what I've imagined. If cut's are not natural, I'll just use "cover shots" as a "transition", between shoots, using only mix transition.

3) Don't use any transition other then cut or mix.. it will look cheap.

And that's it!
Actually, I recently created tutorial, on my own, and even I know all these stuff, I didn't bothered, editing and recording... I just record it straight... yet.. it was worm welcomed.

Originally Posted by KK/Altair

The scope of the project is simply to big for me to make it all in one go - something for which I'd have to lock myself in a garage for two years to complete.

This is actually a great idea!
Let me organise a patreon for kidnaping you.
One Amiga in the dark room should be enough, and chains climbing from the walls should be good inspiration.
(and don't expect steak's for meal).

[Pyromania]

Cool Doom like demo.