Wolfenstein 3D port for CD32

[Cobe]

I don't consider any of the existing Amiga 3D games to be playable on CD32. Earok's port of Wolfenstein was already playable but without sound. Seeing Catacombs, I have high hopes for BSzili's Wolfenstein port. Doom is just too unrealistic.

[Retro1234]

Not even Gloom Deluxe?

but it is 2017 and we have high standards.

sound isnt so important on CD32 as you can have CCDA music.

[Cobe]

Honestly not even Gloom but maybe you're right about high standards..

CDDA is a big advantage. Earok's port didn't have neither SFX . But it had strafe which I hope to see on BSzili's port too.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Cobe

Honestly not even Gloom but maybe you're right about high standards..

CDDA is a big advantage. Earok's port didn't have neither SFX . But it had strafe which I hope to see on BSzili's port too.

One day, some crazy guy will make a NEO GEO MVS sized cartridge (sort of) that goes into the CD32 expansion slot and the sticker will say Quake II for CD32. And inside that cartridge will be an autobooting Vampire board running quake 2, invisible to the user ;-)

The other weak systems at the time were cartridge based so it was possible to sneak in extra chips and memory... CD32 was trapped in its own inadequacy :-)


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[SteveUK]

Haha yes.. won't be long.. cd32 vampire is probably not far away now... here's to hoping!

[NovaCoder]

Originally Posted by Cobe

I don't consider any of the existing Amiga 3D games to be playable on CD32. Earok's port of Wolfenstein was already playable but without sound. Seeing Catacombs, I have high hopes for BSzili's Wolfenstein port. Doom is just too unrealistic.

I agree, forget about seeing a faithful port of Doom running on a stock CD32.

The CD32 obviously has the CPU power to support a Wolfie port because Amiwolf runs on a stock A1200 with FASTRAM so the problem is just a lack of memory. I personally think it's going to be very difficult to get Wolfie running with sound on a stock CD32 but maybe not impossible.

[BSzili]

Sound is the least of my problems, so is the lack of memory. The original DOS game has 2 memory managers (one is id_ca.c and id_mm.c from the Commander Keen days, the other is in id_pm.c) to deal with low memory situations. The main problem is the low-clocked 020 that is further crippled by the slow chip-ram speed. Just take out the Fast RAM expansion from your A1200 and see how well Wolf3D runs.

[eXeler0]

Tbh, I think Gloom is as about as good as it gets on an unexpanded CD32?
But apart from being very blocky it *does* have sound and floors/ceilings. Which in my book makes it more advanced than Wolfie.

For the record.. I have personally not played Gloom on my CD32.. (it sits next to a A1200 with OCd 060 so..).. only seen YouTube.
Is the original Gloom using Chunky Copper? I heard Gloom Deluxe had AKIKO C2P routines but at the same time never officially released for CD32? (I guess they had the intention but simply couldnt get it to run fast enough?)
@BSzili what do you believe is the best approach given the state of the current code (now that you had a proper look at it) vs the ideal implementation on the limited hardware (stock CD32) available?



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[earok]

Yes, Gloom uses Copper Chunky, hence being stuck with a 2x2 display.. Gloom Deluxe is playable on CD32 with the unofficial third party Akiko routines (certainly miles better than AB3D) but I'm 95% sure it's slower than classic Gloom even on comparable resolution settings.

From my limited understanding of it, with Copper Chunky you've got no C2P overhead so there's basically no chance you could do anything faster with Akiko.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by earok

Yes, Gloom uses Copper Chunky, hence being stuck with a 2x2 display.. Gloom Deluxe is playable on CD32 with the unofficial third party Akiko routines (certainly miles better than AB3D) but I'm 95% sure it's slower than classic Gloom even on comparable resolution settings.

From my limited understanding of it, with Copper Chunky you've got no C2P overhead so there's basically no chance you could do anything faster with Akiko.

So objectively speaking, the only "fair" method, given the limitations of the cd32 hardware is to use Copper Chunky.

It would maybe make sense to use the best possible Akiko c2p for "scalability" but if 2x2 doesnt run as fast as Copper Chunky (and it doesnt) and the objective is to make it playable on stock CD32 then that would be a wasted effort.

It comes down to the programmer then to decide what the main objective is for him.

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[eXeler0]

@BSzili did you do any more tests?

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[Cobe]

I'll pop in, I played Glooms few days ago on CD32 and only by turning off floor and ceiling and making it more Wolf a like it becomes playable to me. Deluxe version is a bit slower than Classic. And in Deluxe version you can just turn on or off(black) floor/ceiling which suits Zombie Massacre for example but looks awful on original levels. Classic version has beside on and off a third option with few shades of grey that gives depth and looks nice. Still I'd rather play earok's Wolf port if it had a sound than Gloom.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Cobe

I'll pop in, I played Glooms few days ago on CD32 and only by turning off floor and ceiling and making it more Wolf a like it becomes playable to me. Deluxe version is a bit slower than Classic. And in Deluxe version you can just turn on or off(black) floor/ceiling which suits Zombie Massacre for example but looks awful on original levels. Classic version has beside on and off a third option with few shades of grey that gives depth and looks nice. Still I'd rather play earok's Wolf port if it had a sound than Gloom.

Can you give an estimate regarding the framerate with roof/ceiling turned off in Classic Gloom. And same for Gloom Deluxe?

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[Cobe]

Well, very roughly something between 10-15 fps on 2x2 full screen. Deluxe version has 1-2 frames less.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Cobe

Well, very roughly something between 10-15 fps on 2x2 full screen. Deluxe version has 1-2 frames less.

Deluxe with weapon sprites visible and McGavins "fixed" C2P?

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[Cobe]

Earok would know better. I played them from his 160in1 compilation. But I believe he put akiko c2p.

Thinking about all this floor/ceiling turned off thing, Wolfenstein Gloom Mod would be interesting. I hope nittamituaki is reading this, maybe he could consider it for his new project. Just an idea.. Or earok
You two mastered Gloom Deluxe modding? Mods are not transferable between Classic and Deluxe version I suppose? Classic would be better...

[BSzili]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

@BSzili did you do any more tests?

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What do you mean?

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by BSzili

What do you mean?

Well, just if you made any progress since the last post :-) (or maybe came to some conclusion about what is or isnt viable to pursue.)

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[BSzili]

Fear not, any updates I have will be posted ITT.

[BSzili]

I guess it's time to give a quick rundown of the situation.

Porting the PC version "as is" won't work. I'm through the 3rd version of the scaler, but the raycaster is so slow that it doesn't make much difference. The BSP renderer would need a substantial rewrite. The code bases between the PC and console versions are so different that reusing code is not possible. The only way to port the PC version is if somebody rewrites the raycaster in super-fast 020 assembly which is not something I can do.

The second option is using the console/Apple port as a base. The Mac version (which is the only one with the source available) has a streamlined codebase and the fast BSP renderer, but it's really difficult to get the data files. It involves installing the game on MacOS Classic, saving the resource fork, copying the files to a PC. Then there's the problem of reverse engineering the resource fork format, some Macintosh Toolbox replacement functions are needed to access the resources in them. The 3DO version would be ideal because it's self contained and the data files are easily accessible, but the sources are not available. I tried to use the burgerlib from the doom3do repo, but the REZ format seems to be different between the two games. If somebody can convince Rebecca Heineman to release the sources of the 3DO version, I think it could be used with the Mac one to create a version fast enough for the CD32. For the record I already tried to contact her about a different game, but she didn't get back to me. Maybe someone else will have better luck.

Anyway, I gained a lot of experience during this, which is going to be useful for my next big project