LCD monitor with 50 Hz pal games - Page 2

Allen1 · 18 December 2009, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiCiJi

Im a still using a CRT monitor. So it's time for a LCD. On my CRT I lower the refresh rate to 50 Hz to enjoy smooth scrolling with pal games. But I wonder if it's possible to play pal games with smooth scrolling on a LCD Monitor. I always read from fixed refresh rates on LCD's (60 Hz)
So is there a possibility to emulate pal games smoothly on a LCD?

A cheap and cheerful way to try an LCD monitor is probably to look at the Ebay section where I have pointed out a Eizo FlexScan 360 just like mine which I am using with a Mininig. The auction ends tomorrow though and it is not my item but I thought it could be useful. It is UK only though by the looks of things.

Photon · 26 December 2009, 15:28

Grundig 100 Hz 32" CRT TV, and not just any old junk, but refurbished by a TV shop. Perfect 50Hz scrolling in Bubble'n'Squeak CD32. Really good picture even with RCA video (but don't worry, it has two SCARTs on the back!) Yay

Retro-Nerd · 26 December 2009, 15:30

Argh, a 100Hz TV? They never "scrolled" perfectly.

wlcina · 26 December 2009, 17:59

Could someone create a program, which will clearly show if the LCD is or is not scrolling smoothly ? for compare LCD's

Retro-Nerd · 26 December 2009, 18:15

You will never get a 100% perfect smooth 2D scrolling on LCD displays, no matter if it runs in 50Hz or not. Not unless the response time is nearly 0 ms.

Toni Wilen · 26 December 2009, 18:19

What does response time have to do with 50Hz vsync? CRTs have even worse "response" time

Anyway, it is not just the display but also drivers and OS that need to have 50Hz support = it is impossible to create test program that only tests the display.

Retro-Nerd · 26 December 2009, 18:23

Sorry, i meant real Amigas on LCDs. There is indeed an ugly motion blur, no doubt. The scrolling is fine, but the image isn't crytal clear.

NoX1911 · 26 December 2009, 19:28

For LCDs try 50Hz or 75Hz. 75Hz might be in range on most devices since 72Hz is for 3*24fps (hdtv).

Most PC tv-outs use heavy flicker filter that will downgrade the picture (blend fields) to prevent interlace bobbing. You can disable that on some cards. Deactivation is mandatory if you ask me.

If you have a good CRT (100Hz without postprocessor/deinterlacer) and an unprocessed tv-out signal (preferably on Y/C) you'll get a decent picture.

Reynolds · 14 April 2010, 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Sorry, i meant real Amigas on LCDs. There is indeed an ugly motion blur, no doubt. The scrolling is fine, but the image isn't crytal clear.

And the top of the cake if you want to watch a scroll like the one in Ruff'N'Tumble... Yikes! ...

Mequa · 17 July 2010, 09:05

How about 50Hz on PAL-region plasma TVs, for both a real and emulated Amiga? (Most modern plasmas/LCDs also have PC VGA connectors nowadays, in addition to HDMI, composite and SCART).

My brother has a 42" plasma, I might try my real A1200 on it via composite output, and test both PAL and NTSC modes and a few smooth scrolling games.
(Not sure what the image would look like though - his PlayStation 1 doesn't upscale terribly well on it.)

I have an old 40" Toshiba back-projection TV. My real A1200 works on it well in both PAL and NTSC modes, with much less blurry scrolling than on an LCD.
I can also use WinUAE on it via S-Video connector, running at 50Hz, however I have had a few sync problems with it (not just with WinUAE).

Retro-Nerd · 17 July 2010, 15:11

A real Amiga on a 50 Hz Plasma TV via analog Scart shows a kind of motion blur in scrolling games, it's probably the A/D conversion. The scrolling is smooth though. On the other side, WinUAE via HDMI on a 50Hz Plasma is perfect.

NoX1911 · 17 July 2010, 19:03

Plasmas have 'phosphor lag'. Most of the time green is too slow (green ghosting). Visible on black&white and consoles/computer gfx with high contrast to neighbor pixels.

The only technique coming close to crt would be laser.

Retro-Nerd · 17 July 2010, 19:08

Phosphor lag? And why is PC emulation perfect then? I can't see any issues there. Or is it caused due analog connection (Scart, S-Video etc.)?

NoX1911 · 17 July 2010, 19:14

PC emulation most likely isn't perfect at all. Maybe you just don't see it. Its less visible on natural material.

Phosphor lag is derived from different materials (chemical elements) for different plasma elements. Their "speed" is different (between red, green, blue segments). Some people deny that effect others are (subjective) immune. Its a highly controversial issue indeed. There are many videos on youtube.

Retro-Nerd · 17 July 2010, 19:21

Well, i can clearly see this kind of ghosting with my real Amiga, connected via RGB scart to a Plasma TV. PC Emulation (via HDMI) doesn't show it for sure, no ghosting at all. A sharp and clear image.

Toni Wilen · 17 July 2010, 19:24

Does it also appear in interlaced modes? Many digital (non-crt) displays work badly or strangely with non-interlaced analog video signals.

Retro-Nerd · 17 July 2010, 19:27

Do you mean me? I haven't tried interlaced stuff yet, only my old computer/consoles via Scart, lowres games.

NoX1911 · 17 July 2010, 19:28

Its not that TV makers don't know that issue (phosphor lag). There are most likely countermeasures (digital signal processing) fighting this whenever possible. Maybe it works quite well in your situation.

That rises questions about plasmas buffering frames like TFTs for overdrive creating input lag.

Retro-Nerd · 17 July 2010, 19:32

I notice motion blur on WinUAE+100Hz CRT or on a LCD monitor. If it's there too on a Plasma with HDMI, then i can't see it.

Toni Wilen · 27 August 2010, 18:13

I just bought true 120Hz LCD monitor (LG W2363D), some vsync testing notes (actually 100Hz vsync was the main reason for buying this..):

50Hz vsync emulation using 100Hz refresh rate works perfectly fine, no ghosting at all. Also for some reason GUI quality was crappy in 50Hz (which was surprising, I expected usual min 56Hz) but normal looking in 100Hz..

Some kind of windowed vsync is also possible by setting desktop to 100Hz (instead of 120Hz) mode, there will be glitches now and then but it looks much smoother than normal 60Hz desktop and 50Hz windowed emulation.

Note that >60Hz only works via dual-link DVI. HDMI does not (yet?) support HD >60Hz modes (stupid, isn't it?)

26 December 2009, 19:28	#28
NoX1911 2064 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: de Posts: 231	For LCDs try 50Hz or 75Hz. 75Hz might be in range on most devices since 72Hz is for 324fps (hdtv). Most PC tv-outs use heavy flicker filter that will downgrade the picture (blend fields) to prevent interlace bobbing. You can disable that on some cards. Deactivation is mandatory if you ask me. If you have a good CRT (100Hz without postprocessor/deinterlacer) and an unprocessed tv-out signal (preferably on Y/C) you'll get a decent picture. Last edited by NoX1911; 27 December 2009 at 11:48.*

17 July 2010, 19:14	#34
NoX1911 2064 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: de Posts: 231	PC emulation most likely isn't perfect at all. Maybe you just don't see it. Its less visible on natural material. Phosphor lag is derived from different materials (chemical elements) for different plasma elements. Their "speed" is different (between red, green, blue segments). Some people deny that effect others are (subjective) immune. Its a highly controversial issue indeed. There are many videos on youtube. Last edited by NoX1911; 17 July 2010 at 19:21.

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26 December 2009, 15:28	#22
Photon Moderator Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Eksjö / Sweden Posts: 5,602	Grundig 100 Hz 32" CRT TV, and not just any old junk, but refurbished by a TV shop. Perfect 50Hz scrolling in Bubble'n'Squeak CD32. Really good picture even with RCA video (but don't worry, it has two SCARTs on the back!) Yay

26 December 2009, 15:30	#23
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,438	Argh, a 100Hz TV? They never "scrolled" perfectly.

26 December 2009, 17:59	#24
wlcina Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Czech republic Posts: 580	Could someone create a program, which will clearly show if the LCD is or is not scrolling smoothly ? for compare LCD's

26 December 2009, 18:15	#25
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,438	You will never get a 100% perfect smooth 2D scrolling on LCD displays, no matter if it runs in 50Hz or not. Not unless the response time is nearly 0 ms.

26 December 2009, 18:19	#26
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,506	What does response time have to do with 50Hz vsync? CRTs have even worse "response" time Anyway, it is not just the display but also drivers and OS that need to have 50Hz support = it is impossible to create test program that only tests the display.

26 December 2009, 18:23	#27
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,438	Sorry, i meant real Amigas on LCDs. There is indeed an ugly motion blur, no doubt. The scrolling is fine, but the image isn't crytal clear.

17 July 2010, 09:05	#30
Mequa Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 497	How about 50Hz on PAL-region plasma TVs, for both a real and emulated Amiga? (Most modern plasmas/LCDs also have PC VGA connectors nowadays, in addition to HDMI, composite and SCART). My brother has a 42" plasma, I might try my real A1200 on it via composite output, and test both PAL and NTSC modes and a few smooth scrolling games. (Not sure what the image would look like though - his PlayStation 1 doesn't upscale terribly well on it.) I have an old 40" Toshiba back-projection TV. My real A1200 works on it well in both PAL and NTSC modes, with much less blurry scrolling than on an LCD. I can also use WinUAE on it via S-Video connector, running at 50Hz, however I have had a few sync problems with it (not just with WinUAE).

17 July 2010, 15:11	#31
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,438	A real Amiga on a 50 Hz Plasma TV via analog Scart shows a kind of motion blur in scrolling games, it's probably the A/D conversion. The scrolling is smooth though. On the other side, WinUAE via HDMI on a 50Hz Plasma is perfect.

17 July 2010, 19:03	#32
NoX1911 2064 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: de Posts: 231	Plasmas have 'phosphor lag'. Most of the time green is too slow (green ghosting). Visible on black&white and consoles/computer gfx with high contrast to neighbor pixels. The only technique coming close to crt would be laser.

17 July 2010, 19:08	#33
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,438	Phosphor lag? And why is PC emulation perfect then? I can't see any issues there. Or is it caused due analog connection (Scart, S-Video etc.)?

17 July 2010, 19:21	#35
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,438	Well, i can clearly see this kind of ghosting with my real Amiga, connected via RGB scart to a Plasma TV. PC Emulation (via HDMI) doesn't show it for sure, no ghosting at all. A sharp and clear image.

17 July 2010, 19:24	#36
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,506	Does it also appear in interlaced modes? Many digital (non-crt) displays work badly or strangely with non-interlaced analog video signals.

17 July 2010, 19:27	#37
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,438	Do you mean me? I haven't tried interlaced stuff yet, only my old computer/consoles via Scart, lowres games.

17 July 2010, 19:28	#38
NoX1911 2064 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: de Posts: 231	Its not that TV makers don't know that issue (phosphor lag). There are most likely countermeasures (digital signal processing) fighting this whenever possible. Maybe it works quite well in your situation. That rises questions about plasmas buffering frames like TFTs for overdrive creating input lag.

17 July 2010, 19:32	#39
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,438	I notice motion blur on WinUAE+100Hz CRT or on a LCD monitor. If it's there too on a Plasma with HDMI, then i can't see it.

27 August 2010, 18:13	#40
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,506	I just bought true 120Hz LCD monitor (LG W2363D), some vsync testing notes (actually 100Hz vsync was the main reason for buying this..): 50Hz vsync emulation using 100Hz refresh rate works perfectly fine, no ghosting at all. Also for some reason GUI quality was crappy in 50Hz (which was surprising, I expected usual min 56Hz) but normal looking in 100Hz.. Some kind of windowed vsync is also possible by setting desktop to 100Hz (instead of 120Hz) mode, there will be glitches now and then but it looks much smoother than normal 60Hz desktop and 50Hz windowed emulation. Note that >60Hz only works via dual-link DVI. HDMI does not (yet?) support HD >60Hz modes (stupid, isn't it?)

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