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Old 19 August 2006, 20:08   #1
ceztko
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Toni, do you have a roadmap to share?

Hi! I'd like to know if exist a real TODO/Roadmap list of things that needs to be fixed or implemented in Winuae. Toni, i hear you lots of time saying "yes, i already know that...but it can't be fixed now..." etc. Well, the model of development for Winuae (one mantainer do all, some patches) worked in the past years, but this because of people like you who have a complete vision of what should be done to improve Winuae. I'm sure that if you know that some thing is bugged in winuae (example floppy timings, as you just told in the previuous thread), you annoted it somewhere (didn't found anything in the source dir)... Why don't you share these infos, and some of yout "complete vision", to others? Adding the fact that UAE is historically poorly source documented, it's not hard to me to understand why (Win)UAE is (historically as well, not your fault) open source, closed development.

Thanks,
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Old 19 August 2006, 22:55   #2
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Yes it'd be highly helpful if an open roadmap, bugzilla, type of environment would exist.

At this point if you are a programmer and you want to contribute to WinUAE you don't really know what needs fixing, completing, implementing, debugging, etc.

Even if you fix something on your own there's no guarantee that it will be used, or that someone already is working on it, or that it might have not been needed anyway.

At least a bug reporting tool such as buzgilla would be extremely useful, even by the user stand point of view. It'd be great for those who know C++ to see a bug or feature request it's status and assignment and have a go at it accordingly.

At this point, it's as you say, open source, closed development.
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Old 19 August 2006, 23:45   #3
Toni Wilen
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Simple. There is no roadmap, I am just doing what I find interesting (today it might be interesting, tomorrow it might feel most boring thing ever. I have some things I planned to do 2 years ago but some months later it felt not worth the trouble, but I still plan to do it someday..)

Problem with roadmaps is that then people start asking when/why isn't that feature complete yet.. (see above for the reason)

Developing WinUAE is simply my hobby. Writing documentation etc.. isn't.

Help with documentation/whatever is gladly accepted but I have learned that it won't happen.. (try to find someone who knows Amiga hardware very well and is interested in writing documentation or someone who has both Windows or Unix programming and Amiga hardware knowledge..)
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Old 21 August 2006, 12:54   #4
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yes some form of documentation and/or roadmap would be very usefull

Quote:
Help with documentation/whatever is gladly accepted but I have learned that it won't happen.. (try to find someone who knows Amiga hardware very well and is interested in writing documentation or someone who has both Windows or Unix programming and Amiga hardware knowledge..)
true

but i fear that maybe someday you ge tired of winuae (let's hope not ) the handover to someone else will not be that easy imo.

documentation can help a lot in this case, i'm not suggesting you write it (as you're doing enough already) , but maybe one day we'll find someone

as for the roadmap, i hope you at least got a private one stored somewhere
before a bugzilla type of coordination environment is needed, there has to be sufficiently documentation for the patchers i think

but then again, winuae is perfect as it is
just my 10 cents
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Old 21 August 2006, 13:18   #5
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I cant see any type of usefull enhancement for the future; winuae seems to me already perfect! In my opinion there will be need only for daily maintenance (future windows versions, 64 bit etc... etc...). We need to build an gold pc for Toni.......

Instead, what I well apreciate to see in the future is a sort of winuae/mame32 hybrid, game optimized, with video cropping preset for each game to maximize amiga gaming experience; then severall new extended adf hack to support all game that need manual disk changing to do not need it!
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Old 21 August 2006, 15:32   #6
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Only thing I can think of that would help making even better WinUAE, is getting more/better info on the more obscure pieces of hardware, like in the CD32, CDTV and such. IIRC, these have some hardware thingies that isn't documented very well (Akiko chip, for instance).

Otherwise, if we all start giving Tony a tenner for every downlaod, he might be tempted to implement even a MMU at some point :P
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Old 21 August 2006, 17:20   #7
Toni Wilen
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Instead, what I well apreciate to see in the future is a sort of winuae/mame32 hybrid, game optimized, with video cropping preset for each game to maximize amiga gaming experience
Highly unlikely. (and even if it happens, it would be limited to 100% confirmed images like ipf)

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getting more/better info on the more obscure pieces of hardware, like in the CD32, CDTV and such
YES!

Quote:
MMU
Not again.. Seriously, it will happen someday but it will be quite useless..
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Old 21 August 2006, 17:28   #8
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Only thing that I would like to see in new WinUAE is online options, so that I can play for example Chaos Engine with friends online or Sensible Soccer.

I know there is that ol' version with Killera, but that's not any more supported.

And sometimes in the future it would be nice to have A500 optimized version with only plain A500, 2 Floppies, 512+512 RAM and OCS/ECS option so that it requires less CPU resources.
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Old 21 August 2006, 17:30   #9
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Fully agree with you guys!

Let's open a Bugzilla!

This might also give non-EAB-registered people a way to share their bug reports, probably reporting bugs that have been there for 2 years and which no EAB member - regardless of how many are registered here - has ever discovered!
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Old 21 August 2006, 17:57   #10
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WinUAE already has a bugtracker, not that it's used very often, but here is it: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?grou...29&atid=421601
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Old 21 August 2006, 18:05   #11
Toni Wilen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke
WinUAE already has a bugtracker, not that it's used very often, but here is it: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?grou...29&atid=421601
I am only using sf for cvs. I don't have much interest to admin bugtrackers alone..
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Old 22 August 2006, 01:31   #12
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There's no perfect software! Excellent as it is, WinUAE can be (and is being) improved. Off the top of my head, I can think of input recording and replaying (certified, so people can enter game competitions with a small file of key and stick events that could not be forged) (oh, it's already in the new version, is it?), flash loading (I think Toni said once it could not be done, but I think there's no such thing as "impossible" in software and if someone can do it, he can), internet play, of course! (just map one of the joystick ports to what comes from the other fellow through the net, throw in a simple chat thing, a screen to see people available for play and bob’s your uncle! – yes, I know it’s not that simple).

I also seem to remember Toni saying that the whole program needs rewriting – yikes! – (or was it just one of the sub-systems?) because, as it is, it cannot display sprites where there is no screen beneath, but AGA does just that, as in Banshee.

Obviously, as an Amiga lover, I would like emulation to keep chasing perfection. I think it has been achieved in a couple of Spectrum emulators, but that took a long time and the Amiga is much more complex. But I think that one day we will have a perfect software copy of the Amigas’s workings on our desktops!


And yes, I also think that if Tony opened up his work a bit and delegated a few responsibilities to eventual collaborators, things could roll along with a little more haste. Not that we can really complain on that front! I also fear the time when Toni cannot or will not continue development and there may not be anyone to pick up the flag!

Anyway, let me just take the opportunity to say “thank you very much” to all those generous and talented people who have provided me, in return for no money at all, with my main hobby of the last ten years or so. Thank you Toni, Bernd, Mathias, Brian, Gustavo and all the others.

(Sorry if I am a little off-topic. Or long-winded.)
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Old 22 August 2006, 04:12   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nnever2000
Instead, what I well apreciate to see in the future is a sort of winuae/mame32 hybrid, game optimized, with video cropping preset for each game to maximize amiga gaming experience; then severall new extended adf hack to support all game that need manual disk changing to do not need it!

Now wouldn't that make a nice arcade cabinet, just chuck in winamp and some sega/nintendo/C64 emulators and you have the total retro machine.
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Old 22 August 2006, 04:41   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nnever2000
I cant see any type of usefull enhancement for the future; winuae seems to me already perfect!
WinUAE is far from perfect. It's the best we have, that's all. Take a good hard look at emulators like MAME, WinKawacs, and emulators that service platforms like SNES,GBA,Sega MS, and you will see that WinUAE not only trails in perfomance, but trails in missing features that many Emulators take for granted.

WinUAE sound still takes the odd arcane tweak until it gets smooth or seamless, something that Fellow had right even during it's DOS versions - I remember using it at 300mhz and getting fluid, seamless, playback, and now with a 3gigs and WinUAE, i have to fall back on buffering delays - I'll underline we have a 3.000mhz machine emulating a 7mhz machine here - I can run pretty much everything MAME throws and everything a NeoGEO console\arcade cames up with, were talking Metal Slug and Samurai Showdown here, and then whatever GFX filters on top of it, no hiccups.

Even so much as changing the the odd option in WinUAE will lead to lost sound, sound gaps, no enough CPU or not enough Chipset power.

This is the price of MAME being a collective process and having tons of programmer contributions, while WinUAE - extremely strange for a platform as well known as the Amiga - has to limp away with only one person on the job (for the most part). And the price is that we have one of the most underperforming Emulators in the Emulation scene.

No, it's not perfect. It's as perfect as it can be by being done by one person alone; and then some, but perfect overall? No.

I never understood why the Winfellow team never went the route of helping WinUAE and instead ported Fellow to windows and C++, only to abandon it afterwards. WinUAE could greatly be helped by even an extra C++ programmer or two, let alone an optimum team of 4 to 5 guys. It'd help, a lot.

But if you know C++, the windows API, and hopefully something about Amiga CPU\Chipset architecture, and plunge into the WinUAE sources... well, ouch, good luck finding the minotaur at the end of that labirynth.

I also, and pardon me the selfishness, think WinUAE should focus more on perfomance and less in portability. I, again, pardon me the selfishness, couldn't give a rats ass if UAE doesn't run on Solaris or ReactOS. I'd rather, at this point, have a fully perfomant, f a s t, emulator on Windows, than an Emulator that stumbles away on every platform out there.

WinUAE is a pretty good emulator for the conditions it has to be done in, but perfect, it ain't. Far from it, unfortunately.
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Old 22 August 2006, 07:36   #15
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I'm sitting here with my more or less crappy Laptop, 1.6ghz, 1gig ram, decent gfx card... and everything in Winuae runs smooth if the right settings is set. Havn't had anything running slow or dodgy....

CPU wise, it's fine as it is... I would go for MORE COMPABILITY! . The more it can emulate, the better it is.
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Old 22 August 2006, 09:24   #16
Toni Wilen
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Originally Posted by Ultron
I also, and pardon me the selfishness, think WinUAE should focus more on perfomance and less in portability.
No, it shouldn't have. First you want more programmers and then you want less portability which only causes even more lost programmers (think EUAE)

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than an Emulator that stumbles away on every platform out there.
No, it does not, at least not here (repeating myself again, not too custom chipset heavy games work 50fps on my old 866MHz laptop if configured well enough)

WinUAE does not need 3+GHz, 1.5GHz is fine for 95% A500 games with 50fps+vsync enabled.

Did you ever thought about WinUAE having compatibility problems with some PCs, drivers etc..? There are SO many different PC configurations which makes 100% compatibility more or less impossible (good example is modern 3D games, on some systems they simply run very badly, even if you have 4GHz CPU and newest display card and they can have hundreds of programmers and testers.. and then you find it is caused by something really weird like mouse drivers..)

Do you want to trace this problem or do you only want to complain?
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Old 22 August 2006, 13:45   #17
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WinUAE is far from perfect. It's the best we have, that's all.
for me as a amiga gamer, I think you are maybe right for emulating A1200 and above but not for the good old Amiga 500. For emulating an Amiga 500 Winuae is far far more than simply the best what we have. I played so much games in Winuae and there is no game that not work. I think there are only a few isues left in A500 emulation.
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Old 22 August 2006, 15:36   #18
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Originally Posted by Toni Wilen
WinUAE does not need 3+GHz, 1.5GHz is fine for 95% A500 games with 50fps+vsync enabled.
Sorry Ultron, I agree with everything Toni has said because for me the drivers were an issue once

One of my laptops is below the above specification and everything runs just fine and dandy

I would start by making sure you have the correct configuration in WinUAE setup (try Quickstart first) and if that doesn't work then take a look at your hardware drivers...
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Old 22 August 2006, 16:07   #19
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I could run some games on my ol' AMD K6-2 450MHz, and since I got better laptop (PIV - 2.4MHz) and another one at home (P M 1.6MHz) I did not expiriance any problems with speed.

Optimization might be good idea, but NOT at cost of accuracy!

And don't forget when you compare wide range of hardware that WinUAE covers (A500, A1000, A1200, A500+, A4000, CD32...) and some console emulators which covers only single console.

Also emulating computer is much harder and power consuming then console emulation. (Just think about HD emulation to get better idea)
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Old 22 August 2006, 19:31   #20
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Not to mention the fact that the Amiga's Bitplanes is not entirely compatible with the PC way of doing mem-chunks.

Amiga is one of the most complex computers ever made for the open market...... which makes emulating it one of the worst jobs you can set your PC todo

PS: Tony, I was joking about the MMU, I didn't mean to make you upset or anything
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