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Old 07 June 2018, 01:55   #321
E-Penguin
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I want to submit an entry and would be happy to organise but I won't have anything to do with judging. It should be independent. Especially as there's a non trivial amount of money at stake.

Having the top gamers from the lemon/eab compo seems fair enough but will they want to do it? We've not even discussed panel size, but maybe 5? Three seems too few.

Public vote would take too long and be fraught with controversy.
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Old 07 June 2018, 02:11   #322
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OK, taking into account the discussion so far, and Ian's general request for simplifications... Rules v4:

Quote:
1. Single hardware category. Submission should mention target hardware (OCS 1Mb,AGA,Anything) and judges may take into consideration appropriate use of resources when scoring.

2. Games must be written for the competition. Reused game elements must be declared such that the judges can identify the original work done for the competition.

3. Judgement will be made on the publicly available submission (That is, what the judges play is the same as what anyone else following the competition can play).

4. The competition will last 6 months from the official start date, and final submissions must be made by 23:59 UTC on the last day.

5. Submissions must be in the form of a disk image (or images) playable on both emulated and real hardware, according to the stated target hardware configuration. Instructions, etc, to be provided as necessary, as determined by the submitter.

6. Team entries are permitted, with team size being declared. A single contact point should be provided.

The competition makes no claim to ownership, licencing or distribution rights, which belong to their respective owners. Submitting an entry to the competition expressly grants the competition organisers the right to distribute the entry for purposes of the competition only.

Judging criteria will be on "best game". Judges may consider the amount of reused material and technical proficiency.

Note; open source is not a requirement but is encouraged to help build the Amiga game development community, at the discretion of the respective developers
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Old 07 June 2018, 02:30   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
No. The competition is about developing a game in a given time frame within the agreed restrictions of the competition.
Nope, sorry, that is your idea of what the competition is.
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Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
A game years in the making but released next month does not apply, nor should it.
Others have already agreed that it doesn't really matter, besides I could've been working on a game for years and tell you I just started it, how are you going to know it's not the truth. Simple answer is you won't. Also working on it for years, doesn't mean that it's going to be any good.
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Incidentally the only restrictions anyone can seemingly agree on is that it runs on an Amiga, so I don't understand why you are so vociferously objecting to a ruleset everyone else more or less agrees with.
Here I don't need to raise any issues as you have contradicted yourself in a single sentence.
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You bring nothing to the discussion other than disagreement. I don't even think what you are proposing is in any way fundamentally different, beyond the phrasing.
That is your opinion, you are entitled to it of course. I don't think that is how others see it though (maybe they do, maybe after 15 pages of treading water they have lost the will to live, who knows)

Ultimately though, it's Shatterhand idea, so up to him as far as I'm concerned. He ask for help, you have offered your suggestion, as have I as an impartial observer.

Other than doing some forum admin, I will have little to do with the competition, unless called upon further. It won't affect me either way.

Lets not forget the original premise here though.

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1245392&postcount=2

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Note; open source is not a requirement but is encouraged to help build the Amiga game development community, at the discretion of the respective developers
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Old 07 June 2018, 02:34   #324
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Other than doing some forum admin, I will have little to do with the competition, unless called upon further. It won't affect me either way.
So you're just being argumentative for the sake of it then. Well done.
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Old 07 June 2018, 02:53   #325
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Come on guys, let’s try and keep things friendly.

Everyone’s input is important, both game developers and gamers. Ian brings an important perspective which is different from that of game developers. Without gamers why bother making games?
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Old 07 June 2018, 03:00   #326
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The list looks quite good E-Penguin.
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Old 07 June 2018, 03:09   #327
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Quote:
5. Submissions must be in the form of a disk image (or images) playable on both emulated and real hardware, according to the stated target hardware configuration. Instructions, etc, to be provided as necessary, as determined by the submitter.
Why a disk image ? Should a hard drive installable game that comes in an lha archive be prevented from entry ?
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Old 07 June 2018, 03:33   #328
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Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
So you're just being argumentative for the sake of it then. Well done.
So you need to want to enter the competition to have an opinion?

I am fairly sure from the responses of others, that they have seen it for what it is, an alternative suggestion that I believe is more open and will encourage more entries.

You may have a different opinion, but everyone is entitled to an opinion and yours is no less valid to you as mine is to me.

I will disagree where I feel I need to, but I wouldn't call that being argumentative. Not participating in the competition, does not mean I don't want to see it do well, after all it's probably going to have EABs name in it somewhere, and it's in my interests as well as everyone else associated with the abime network for this to work and hopefully be a new thing for EAB going forwards.

I will not agree that restrictions are necessary, as strongly as you will agree they are. Therefore having made my suggestions, this is the end of it for me. They are out there, someone other than you or I should decide what is the best approach.

Preferably Shatterhand as it's his idea, maybe he can consult with others via PM that can see the benefit of both sides of the discussion and truly come to a consensus about the steps to take.
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Old 07 June 2018, 03:37   #329
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Come on guys, let’s try and keep things friendly.
No problem as far as I'm concerned dude, if everyone agreed life would be incredibly boring.
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Old 07 June 2018, 04:13   #330
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I have been reading the revision demo part rules. Obviously these have been refined over the years and are very successful.

https://2018.revision-party.net/compos/rules

One interstesting bit is how they deal with re-use:

Quote:
Compo entries may not have been released before. Pure rips or copies will be kicked from the competition without further notice. Audio-visual works (demos, intros, games and videos) may use previously published material such as soundtracks or artwork, provided the work as a whole is substantially new. How substantial this needs to be is decided by the compo organizer, if you are in doubt on this please contact us before the party.
I think the phrase provided the work as a whole is substantially new is quite interesting and could be worth consideration.
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Old 07 June 2018, 05:19   #331
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This:

Quote:
I could've been working on a game for years and tell you I just started it, how are you going to know it's not the truth. Simple answer is you won't. Also working on it for years, doesn't mean that it's going to be any good.
Is the main point of this discussion to me really. People just won't know.

I was this past weekend (because I had some free time) working on a vertical scroll routine and some tests blitting stuff and testing collisions. The scroll routine is based on a scroll routine I used for another project that, so far, didn't go anywhere. I am telling you this now, but I could submit a game with all code I created for those tests and you wouldn't know. And those are small code snippets, people could be reusing lots of stuff they created before (McGeezer for example certainly would use a lot of stuff he learned for BombJack Beer Edition while I am sure Earok has a shitload of stuff ready to use considering how many stuff he has already produced). We just can't control that.

Quote:
Compo entries may not have been released before. Pure rips or copies will be kicked from the competition without further notice. Audio-visual works (demos, intros, games and videos) may use previously published material such as soundtracks or artwork, provided the work as a whole is substantially new. How substantial this needs to be is decided by the compo organizer, if you are in doubt on this please contact us before the party.
And I think this solves the problem.

This is the first edition of the contest, if it goes right I would love to see it happening every year. Let's try to keep this first one simple. For some reason, I really doubt games being developed for a long time will enter the competition. There are some high quality games being developed for quite a while where devs already chose the distribution model. But if they choose to be on them competition, let the judges decide if the long development time should be taken on consideration when judging them. "How substantial new this needs to be?, let the judges decide

Regarding judges, I'd like to point this thread to some members. The guys who always play at the EAB/Lemon competition are obviously good candidates. I also think Toni Galvez and Akira are guys who have a good understanding of game mechanics and if they *want*, they could be good judges too (Though I wouldn't be suprised if Toni wanted to be a contestant )
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Old 07 June 2018, 06:17   #332
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I've never written a game before but I can code and have a nice idea I'd like to try. Count me in if you get this up and running.
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Old 07 June 2018, 09:14   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpine9000 View Post
Why a disk image ? Should a hard drive installable game that comes in an lha archive be prevented from entry ?
Good point - I hadn't considered that. The "disk image" thing was more to make sure it was easy for people to run it than anything else. I'll add "installable archive" to the list.

Shatterhand
Naturally its impossible to stop someone reusing bits and pieces from their previous projects, but in the interests of giving everyone a fair chance I think we should adopt the "substantially new" wording. I'll try to spin that into the wording. It is after all a development competition, we should be considering the development work done in the context of the competition.

OmegaMax
Thank you.
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Old 07 June 2018, 09:23   #334
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Honestly, if I'd have to rewrite every line of code I did for Inviyya for a new game to enter this competition, I'd rather not compete.
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Old 07 June 2018, 09:25   #335
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V5 - incorporated above suggestions. I've tried to pare it down to the minimum of rules and split the rest off as additional information.

Quote:
Rules:
1. Single hardware category. Submission should mention target hardware (OCS 1Mb,AGA,Anything) and judges may take into consideration appropriate use of resources when scoring.

2. Games must be substantially new work for the competition. Significant reused game elements (eg graphics, audio) are permitted and should be declared such that the judges can identify the original work done for the competition.

3. Judgement will be made on the publicly available submission (That is, what the judges play is the same as what anyone else following the competition can play).

4. The competition will last 6 months from the official start date, and final submissions must be made by 23:59 UTC on the last day.

5. Team entries are permitted, with team size being declared. A single contact point should be provided.

Additional information:
The competition makes no claim to ownership, licencing or distribution rights, which belong to their respective owners. Submitting an entry to the competition expressly grants the competition organisers the right to distribute the entry for purposes of the competition only.

Judging criteria will be on "best game". Judges may consider the amount of reused material and technical proficiency.

Submissions must be in the form of a disk image (or images) playable on both emulated and real hardware, according to the stated target hardware configuration. Instructions, etc, to be provided as necessary, as determined by the submitter. An archive in a standard format (eg lha) suitable for harddisk installation is also acceptable.

Note; open source is not a requirement but is encouraged to help build the Amiga game development community, at the discretion of the respective developers
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Old 07 June 2018, 09:26   #336
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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
Honestly, if I'd have to rewrite every line of code I did for Inviyya for a new game to enter this competition, I'd rather not compete.
Gosh no that's not the intention at all. Is v5's wording better?
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Old 07 June 2018, 09:28   #337
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Hi all, I would like to get involved in this somehow with my homebrewlegends.com site.

A little bit like the forum64/protovision team up for that comp.

Would that be doable?
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Old 07 June 2018, 09:31   #338
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Originally Posted by E-Penguin View Post
Gosh no that's not the intention at all. Is v5's wording better?
As per the revision rules, I think as long as the "game" is "sustantially new" that's all that should matter.

Discouraging code re-use would basically make the competition only attractive to first time game writers. As well as promoting the worst possible software engineering practises.
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Old 07 June 2018, 09:38   #339
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"Code reuse saves money" is a lie management tell themselves but yes we don't want to suggest people need to reinvent the wheel. I've put "substantially new" in, does that cover it?
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Old 07 June 2018, 09:41   #340
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"Code reuse saves money" is a lie management tell themselves but yes we don't want to suggest people need to reinvent the wheel. I've put "substantially new" in, does that cover it?
As Shatterhand mentioned earlier, it’s impossible to tell if code was developed for the competition or not. The only thing that should matter is if the game seems likes it’s “new” or just a rehash of an old game with some insignificant changes.
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