3D in demos - F030 vs Amiga 1200 - Page 5

jPV · 01 July 2013, 18:15

Photon · 02 July 2013, 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by carls

At the moment, I'm very into A1200+fastmem demos.

Below are a few with good 3D or other complex effects. Most of the videos were probably recorded on something faster, but I've watched all of them on real hardware (I've got both Hawk and Microbotics cards, pure memory expansions without faster CPU) recently and I've been impressed by their speed on A1200+fastmem.

Wit Premium by Freezers is crazy fast:
[ Show youtube player ]

Mindflow by Stellar was designed for A1200 with FastMem
[ Show youtube player ]

The 4K intro Dawn by Artwork contains a really fast 3D engine which is impressively fast:
[ Show youtube player ]

G-Force by Pygmy Projects features shaded 3D without texturing and it's quite snappy:
[ Show youtube player ]

Motion by Bomb also contains some fairly complex 3D and runs smoothly - EXCEPT the final Doom world, which is quite jerky. I think the video is recorded using an 030 turbo.
[ Show youtube player ]

Nexus 7 by Andromeda runs fine on even an A1200 without fastmem and is still very impressive:
[ Show youtube player ]

Syndrome by Balance is another demo that is nice and fast with some 3D:
[ Show youtube player ]

Dove by Abyss is another nice one with a super funky soundtrack to boot:
[ Show youtube player ]

Thanks for this little demoshow

I think only Nexus 7 is what OP is looking for, though. Wit Premium: well, the music is fast

I thought the textured octahedron was the most impressive part, and it looked very nice.

Unless you count the blenkvectors star, there's no 3D at all in Dove. Bit lame coding, but it had good polish and flow - and humor, I enjoyed it a lot

carls · 03 July 2013, 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Photon

Thanks for this little demoshow

I think only Nexus 7 is what OP is looking for, though. Wit Premium: well, the music is fast

I thought the textured octahedron was the most impressive part, and it looked very nice.

Unless you count the blenkvectors star, there's no 3D at all in Dove. Bit lame coding, but it had good polish and flow - and humor, I enjoyed it a lot

You're welcome

Why do you think they're not what the OP asked for? To me, those are all demos that feature basically the same stuff as early Falcon demos; texture mapping, envmapping, phong/gouraud shading, fractal rendering, voxel landscapes, warping rotozoomers, video decompression, full-screen animation playback, etc. Although admittedly, I threw a few personal favourites in there as well

I actually forgot about "Experiment 2007" by RNO: [ Show youtube player ]

The fact that there is no "complex" 3D compared to the Falcon demos in the original post is simply because A1200+fastmem can't cope with that. Dawn, and the two 40k remixes - the unofficial one being Damn by Abyss, [ Show youtube player ] - is some of the best 3D I've seen that's still enjoyable on the old 020+fast.

For a 14 MHz machine with no DSP and the added overhead of doing C2P conversion, I think they're pretty damn impressive but of course nowhere near the capabilities of the Falcon.

kovacm · 03 July 2013, 11:40

^
yes, Damn/Abyss, Experiment 2007/RNO and Nexus 7 are phenomenal!

...but G-Froce/Pygmy Projects si !!! WOW! WOW!

---
regarding DSP, demo "Don't Break the Oath" by DHS require 68030/50MHz and do not use DSP except for music... so 030/50MHz + FastRAM could be point where DSP lose edge.

[ Show youtube player ]

(unfortunate this is only Falcon demo designed for CT2 turbo card - 68030/50MHz with FastRAM)

btw VERY impresive 3D object in "Are You Sitting Comfortably?" by Reservoir Gods intro (at the end)
[ Show youtube player ]

and just stumble on this: massive 3D textured landscape for game!
[ Show youtube player ]

s2325 · 07 September 2013, 15:52

Textured 3D on stock Atari ST [ Show youtube player ] Should be possible also on Amiga 500.

StingRay · 07 September 2013, 21:23

Texture mapping on Amiga has been done in 1991 already! (Cube-o-Matic/Spreadpoint, Blitter Miracle/Brainstorm etc).

kovacm · 07 September 2013, 22:56

^ and first time on st?

Anyway, new 3D stuff from DHS for ST is AMAZING!

Not sure how much is precalc but I think there is nothing similar for A500?

[ Show youtube player ]

StingRay · 07 September 2013, 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovacm

^ and first time on st?

I was replying to the "Should be possible also on Amiga 500." comment and nothing else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovacm

Anyway, new 3D stuff from DHS for ST is AMAZING!

Not sure how much is precalc but I think there is nothing similar for A500?

[ Show youtube player ]

Nice code, graphics and music but still a VERY boring demo! One 3d object followed by another, maybe a LUT effect in-between and then, oh well, another 3d object. Not to mention the fact that the texture mapper isn't the most accurate in the world. There might be a reason why nothing similar exists for the A500.

kovacm · 07 September 2013, 23:52

^
"Boring", "boring"...???

Hm, i was thinking that we are talk about 3D texture mapped objects and not about design!

What are most complex 3D texture mapped scenes on Amiga 500.

StingRay · 08 September 2013, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovacm

^
"Boring", "boring"...???

Hm, i was thinking that we are talk about 3D texture mapped objects and not about design!

Yes and it is of course forbidden by law to have an opinion about certain demos that you post.

kovacm · 08 September 2013, 00:14

Not at all! Although I do not see how it is relevant for discusion about 3D...

---

So Amiga 500 does not have such complex 3D objects in demos at all?

Galahad/FLT · 08 September 2013, 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovacm

Not at all! Although I do not see how it is relevant for discusion about 3D...

---

So Amiga 500 does not have such complex 3D objects in demos at all?

Whether there is or isn't a demo like this for A500 is irrelevant, most Amiga demo coders strive for a combination of great effects, and looking nice and smooth for the most part.

Is the Falcon running that demo running only in ST mode, or full speed Falcon mode?

If its your contention that visually thats a nice looking demo, you'd be wrong on that. Some of the static pictures are alright, but the actual vectors seem to have large steps inbetween colours on the textures.

Put simply, this is not something Amiga coders would look at and think "hey thats really great looking", most would say "will be great when its finished properly".

And a couple of those textured objects have some MASSIVE clipping going on to stop it slowing down, I refer especially to the screen with the alien brain/head, seems the routines there aren't quite as fantastic as you think.

kovacm · 08 September 2013, 01:24

^
I agree. But " it is irrelevant" - it is relevant to me!

Except movem with ST planar orientation, is there anything that technically prevent Amiga500 to achieve same effect, quality and speed?

Quote:

... seems the routines there aren't quite as fantastic as you think.

Yes... Since there is nothing alike on Amiga, it is hard to judge the quality of DHS effects...

"...most would say "will be great when its finished properly"."

Even if they did not done nothing similar by them selfs?? - not nice.

Btw Falcon run DHS demo at 100% same speed as plain ST.

Btw2 I am not sure why you Amiga guys are always in "defending" mode (forget user at previous page that starts to explain how Amiga is superior, which is obvious, when I ask so best 3D demos for plain A1200)?
Now I simple ask you to point me to Amiga 500 demo that have similar 3D effect (I never follow Amiga demoscene closely so I need help).
If you have technical coments regarding 3D I am most happy to read it! comments about opinion and taste are irrelevant

jeff b00toNic · 08 September 2013, 12:25

I think you desperately trying to prove a point here.
Btw why are you Atari guys always in "offensive" mode

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovacm

^
Now I simple ask you to point me to Amiga 500 demo that have similar 3D effect (I never follow Amiga demoscene closely so I need help).

Hardknee Lotus
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=51161

kovacm · 08 September 2013, 13:42

^
no. I just want to somebody point me to Amiga demo with 3D texture graphics - just like you did (but this seems as impossible task for Amigians

judging from previous posts...)!

thanx! GREAT DEMO - better than new ST demos.

btw what is speed of A500 fastram ?

hooverphonique · 08 September 2013, 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by kovacm

^
btw what is speed of A500 fastram ?

A500 has no fastram as standard, so that's hard to answer.. fastest possible is full 68000 speed...

kovacm · 08 September 2013, 14:06

is it right to assume that Fast and Chip ram speed are same from MC68000 point of view (in cycles) with difference that Fast ram is _always_ accessible to MC68000?

StingRay · 08 September 2013, 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff b00toNic

I think you desperately trying to prove a point here.

He sure is. I just don't know why.

s2325 · 08 September 2013, 15:21

Should I delete my link to make everyone happy?

StingRay · 08 September 2013, 15:31

Not necessary, it's not that I don't like Atari demos, quite the opposite in fact. It is also a known fact that chunky effects run quite fast on the ST thanks to the interleaved screen format which allows to use movep for the c2p conversion. I have no idea what he tries to prove here but I guess I shouldn't care anyway.

01 July 2013, 18:15	#81
jPV Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: RNO Posts: 1,006	How about G-force by Pygmy Projects?

03 July 2013, 11:40	#84
kovacm Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Serbia Posts: 275	^ yes, Damn/Abyss, Experiment 2007/RNO and Nexus 7 are phenomenal! ...but G-Froce/Pygmy Projects si !!! WOW! WOW! --- regarding DSP, demo "Don't Break the Oath" by DHS require 68030/50MHz and do not use DSP except for music... so 030/50MHz + FastRAM could be point where DSP lose edge. [ Show youtube player ] (unfortunate this is only Falcon demo designed for CT2 turbo card - 68030/50MHz with FastRAM) btw VERY impresive 3D object in "Are You Sitting Comfortably?" by Reservoir Gods intro (at the end) [ Show youtube player ] and just stumble on this: massive 3D textured landscape for game! [ Show youtube player ] Last edited by kovacm; 03 July 2013 at 12:07.

07 September 2013, 22:56	#87
kovacm Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Serbia Posts: 275	^ and first time on st? Anyway, new 3D stuff from DHS for ST is AMAZING! Not sure how much is precalc but I think there is nothing similar for A500? [ Show youtube player ] Last edited by kovacm; 07 September 2013 at 23:07.

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07 September 2013, 15:52	#85
s2325 Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Gargore Age: 43 Posts: 17,789	Textured 3D on stock Atari ST [ Show youtube player ] Should be possible also on Amiga 500.

07 September 2013, 21:23	#86
StingRay move.l #$c0ff33,throat Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Berlin/Joymoney Posts: 6,863	Texture mapping on Amiga has been done in 1991 already! (Cube-o-Matic/Spreadpoint, Blitter Miracle/Brainstorm etc).

07 September 2013, 23:52	#89
kovacm Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Serbia Posts: 275	^ "Boring", "boring"...??? Hm, i was thinking that we are talk about 3D texture mapped objects and not about design! What are most complex 3D texture mapped scenes on Amiga 500.

08 September 2013, 00:14	#91
kovacm Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Serbia Posts: 275	Not at all! Although I do not see how it is relevant for discusion about 3D... --- So Amiga 500 does not have such complex 3D objects in demos at all?

08 September 2013, 13:42	#95
kovacm Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Serbia Posts: 275	^ no. I just want to somebody point me to Amiga demo with 3D texture graphics - just like you did (but this seems as impossible task for Amigians judging from previous posts...)! thanx! GREAT DEMO - better than new ST demos. btw what is speed of A500 fastram ?

08 September 2013, 14:06	#97
kovacm Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Serbia Posts: 275	is it right to assume that Fast and Chip ram speed are same from MC68000 point of view (in cycles) with difference that Fast ram is _always_ accessible to MC68000?

08 September 2013, 15:21	#99
s2325 Zone Friend Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Gargore Age: 43 Posts: 17,789	Should I delete my link to make everyone happy?

08 September 2013, 15:31	#100
StingRay move.l #$c0ff33,throat Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Berlin/Joymoney Posts: 6,863	Not necessary, it's not that I don't like Atari demos, quite the opposite in fact. It is also a known fact that chunky effects run quite fast on the ST thanks to the interleaved screen format which allows to use movep for the c2p conversion. I have no idea what he tries to prove here but I guess I shouldn't care anyway.

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