Critical components to open source

[bubbob42]

I'm willing to sacrifice to bring the Amiga back. I just need commitment, a serious game plan (I have good ideas) and ethical reasonable people to work with.

Yeah, anything else? Stop dreaming and write code.

(I'll put that on hotkey, now...seriously)

[wawa]

Originally Posted by bubbob42

Yeah, anything else? Stop dreaming and write code.

(I'll put that on hotkey, now...seriously)

exactly.

also, what development tools are we lacking? gcc6 amiga-m68k crosscompiler backend improves as we speak, vbcc is still there, free pascal, a whole native 68k toolchain along with a lot of programs may be compiled for 68k (okay its aros, but you can compile genuine amiga-68k binaries with it, i did a helloworld, more testing would be good, but there is so much else to do..).

now, what comes to my mind, as missing, is a reliable way to use gdb with 68k. please notify me, whoever has found the way.

okay, back to compiler..

[bubbob42]

Just use SAS/C/Codeprobe and forget about gdb

[wawa]

Originally Posted by bubbob42

Just use SAS/C/Codeprobe and forget about gdb

i knew i will get useless answers. :P
thats not an option for me on aros. a lot of components need different contemporary features, gcc4 or 5+, odyssey needs stuff like c++11.

amiga entusiasts complain about lack of updated system, new features and new software..

if amiga, and i mean 68k is to take advantage of cross platform developments, not only from linux but also whats openly available among the widely understood amiga(ng) scene, one needs to accept common standards. and that is gcc toolchain whether we like it or not.

one can use sas/c if
1. one got hold of it at all
2. compiles directly on amiga
3. an own project (ported code would likely cause more issues alone with the compiler than with amiga-m68k gcc backend, not to talk of further tools, dependencies and build system demands)
4. a small project (otherwise on amiga compile time and necessary memory is a limit)

advantages of gdb usage along with winuae are obvious i think, i knew people got it to work, but the one i knew, jason, has quit..

imho, we need to establish kind of workflow that allows more people to work on stuff and contribute. and debugging 68k is an open problem here. im really tired of putting debug statements and breakpoints all over the code. it is error prone, tiresome and extremely time consuming.

[E-Penguin]

Originally Posted by matthey

FPGA technology and mass production of affordable hardware I believe are the keys to the Amiga survival.

Definitely. The Vampire / Apollo project are galloping towards an Amiga-on-a-chip, but not just recreating the old hardware; they're developing new features. Whether they're doing it right seems to be a matter of some debate, but they are doing it. It must be possible for others. Open sourcing the Apollo core and associated custom chip enhancements, or an equivalent M68k hardware design, is as critical as for software.

With a bigger / faster FPGA it isn't outlandish to consider a multi core, gigahertz class M68k implementation in the near future. That might actually have enough poke to challenge low end ARM devices (though not on cost).

Modern FPGAs and VHDL are making open source chip design a reality.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by wawa

if amiga, and i mean 68k is to take advantage of cross platform developments, not only from linux but also whats openly available among the widely understood amiga(ng) scene, one needs to accept common standards. and that is gcc toolchain whether we like it or not.

No doubt GCC is still the standard by which all compilers are measured. The only problem is there is no official Amiga support and it is in many ways alien to the Amiga.

Originally Posted by wawa

advantages of gdb usage along with winuae are obvious i think, i knew people got it to work, but the one i knew, jason, has quit..

imho, we need to establish kind of workflow that allows more people to work on stuff and contribute. and debugging 68k is an open problem here. im really tired of putting debug statements and breakpoints all over the code. it is error prone, tiresome and extremely time consuming.

Part of the problem is the alien debugging format. GDB is really not that easy to use either as it makes sacrifices to be cross platform. BDebug is much easier to use and has some support for GCC formats. It would be a good software to try and open source. I would work on improving it if the source were available. I have considered adding an Amiga GUI to ADis and turning it into a debugger/disassembler but I will not bother if the 68k Amiga is going to go nowhere.

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

Definitely. The Vampire / Apollo project are galloping towards an Amiga-on-a-chip, but not just recreating the old hardware; they're developing new features. Whether they're doing it right seems to be a matter of some debate, but they are doing it. It must be possible for others. Open sourcing the Apollo core and associated custom chip enhancements, or an equivalent M68k hardware design, is as critical as for software.

Yea, it makes sense to move everything possible into one big FPGA (future SoC?). IMO, the Apollo guys are doing some things right and some things wrong. I'm still amazed about some of the poor CPU ISA choices for the future. Why create problems and limitations for later by over-optimizing for particular hardware today? Gunnar has even entertained the possibility of an ASIC but I would not invest in one with the choices he made. In contrast to the Apollo guys, the FPGA Arcade group has no vision for a future 68k outside of a perfect simulation of existing 68k processors. They look for shortcuts like partial emulation using ARM and seem to miss the potential that was overlooked in the 68k. Mike appears to be more than capable of 68k FPGA CPU design too. An ASIC from his 68k design may not be quite as fast but may be better organized and easier to work with. You can probably tell that I believe a 68k ASIC is the next step in the natural progression, probably without the Amiga (or other system) custom chips which would be left in a smaller cheaper FPGA for flexibility.

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

With a bigger / faster FPGA it isn't outlandish to consider a multi core, gigahertz class M68k implementation in the near future. That might actually have enough poke to challenge low end ARM devices (though not on cost).

Modern FPGAs and VHDL are making open source chip design a reality.

Multi-core support is relatively easy in an FPGA (copy and paste) and is a quick way to better compete with an ASIC in performance. The down side is the need for a larger FPGA which becomes less cost effective. This is acceptable for an FPGA design for an ASIC. Muti-core is a much better way to increase performance than high clock speeds for ASICs also. The Apollo Core (and 68060) already outperforms most low end ARM processors in single core performance per MHz. CISC processors are naturally strong in single core performance and the ARM's Thumb 2 is inferior to the 68k ISA (8 GP registers compared to the 68k 16 which increases cache/memory accesses and the number of instructions compared to the 68k and 68k enhancements can decrease the number of instructions while improving code density).

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by wawa

one can use sas/c if
1. one got hold of it at all

It's available in a neat LZX archive here.

Originally Posted by wawa

2. compiles directly on amiga

No, haven't you heard of Vamos? Even some former AmigaOS developers use it.

[bubbob42]

Originally Posted by wawa

one can use sas/c if



4. a small project (otherwise on amiga compile time and necessary memory is a limit)

That's not an issue, really. Compile times on 060 are nice enough, even for larger projects (where you don't build the whole source all the time anyway) and the impatient use WinUAE JIT.

For native 68k driver development, SAS is still one of the best choices.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by bubbob42

For native 68k driver development, SAS is still one of the best choices.

There really are only 3 good choices so I hope SAS/C is one of the best choices.

1) GCC
2) vbcc
3) SAS/C

Each has advantages and disadvantages but all should be adequate for "68k driver development".

[Minuous]

There is a new interview with Hyperion:

http://www.generationamiga.com/2017/...tainment-cvba/

The statements "even Amiga Inc. cannot market or develop or distribute AmigaOS in any way, shape or form" and, specifically in reference to Cloanto, "There is no legal way to interfere with our exclusive source-code license of AmigaOS" would seem to indicate that Cloanto's new Kickstart is illegal.

Also it is stated that Hyperion is not legally allowed to open source AmigaOS :-(

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by Minuous

There is a new interview with Hyperion:

http://www.generationamiga.com/2017/...tainment-cvba/

The statements "even Amiga Inc. cannot market or develop or distribute AmigaOS in any way, shape or form" and, specifically in reference to Cloanto, "There is no legal way to interfere with our exclusive source-code license of AmigaOS" would seem to indicate that Cloanto's new Kickstart is illegal.

Also it is stated that Hyperion is not legally allowed to open source AmigaOS :-(

This is weird, especially since Cloanto appears to have all the rights according to the US Copyright Office.

I think there are two things to distinct here; AmigaOS (the current form with Kickstart and Workbench combined) and the classic Kickstart and Workbench. As far as I can verify without any prove from Hyperion's side; Cloanto is the owner, perhaps Hyperion has a license (as stated, they have "... an exclusive, worldwide, perpetual, royalty free license to AmigaOS and its source-code ...".

But I guess it's time to contact them.

[michaelz]

On this moment, I contacted Mike Batillana to get the promised demo-licenses. He hasn't responded up to now, but he's quite busy. I requested an update on the status. When I know more, I'll post this.

[michaelz]

Originally Posted by michaelz

This is weird, especially since Cloanto appears to have all the rights according to the US Copyright Office.

I think there are two things to distinct here; AmigaOS (the current form with Kickstart and Workbench combined) and the classic Kickstart and Workbench. As far as I can verify without any prove from Hyperion's side; Cloanto is the owner, perhaps Hyperion has a license (as stated, they have "... an exclusive, worldwide, perpetual, royalty free license to AmigaOS and its source-code ...".

But I guess it's time to contact them.

Just been reading the website of Hyperion and the links to the stipulated document (most notably; the attachment with the agreement).

As far as I can tell on this moment, Amiga Inc and etc held all the rights until 14th of december in 2009. On that moment, a settlement was made and Hyperion got a perpetual, royalty free and worldwide license to the code and objects. Note, they only got a license, not the rights themselves.

On the 11th of march, 2013, the rights were transferred to Cloanto (check my earlier link and open one of the kickstarts for example).

A license is just that, a license. So Hyperion doesn't own anything. It's somewhat the same as when you buy Windows, you don't own the product, you have the right to use it. Hyperion got these rights to the source code, so they could develop products.

To open source code, you need to be the owner of the copyrights. As far as I'm concerned on this moment, until any party involved (every reader in this forum as well) proves me wrong (with factual documents), Cloanto is the party that has these rights.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by michaelz

On this moment, I contacted Mike Batillana to get the promised demo-licenses. He hasn't responded up to now, but he's quite busy. I requested an update on the status. When I know more, I'll post this.

It is interesting that Cloanto, Hyperion and A-Eon don't say much about their business relationships and understandings. I still suspect A-Eon/Trevor would have obtained some share of ownership of Hyperion for bailing them out of bankruptcy (I would have demanded majority ownership). Trevor is friends with Michael Battilana but it appears Hyperion and Cloanto have had a minimal relationship but some kind of understanding from before the bailout. Even Amiga Inc. left Cloanto alone. Everyone wants to hold on to their intellectual assets like it was precious but they don't work together other than A-Eon and Hyperion, which A-Eon may now control. Strange.

Originally Posted by Trevor Dickinson

I also have a close business relationship with Michael Battilana of Cloanto srl and helped him fund later versions of “Amiga Forever”. Incidentally I also “blame” Michael for getting me involved in the Next-Generation Amiga business.

http://distrita.com/a-eon-interview-...amigas-future/

[bubbob42]

Originally Posted by matthey

There really are only 3 good choices so I hope SAS/C is one of the best choices.

Alas, you know what I meant.

Each has advantages and disadvantages but all should be adequate for "68k driver development".

Mhmm...we had some problems with vbcc's optimizer. Generated code crashed the machine, while working fine when compiled with SAS (optimizer enabled, of course). Frank never got a sample of this, unfortunately, since the critical part ended up being rewritten in asm anyway.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by bubbob42

Mhmm...we had some problems with vbcc's optimizer. Generated code crashed the machine, while working fine when compiled with SAS (optimizer enabled, of course). Frank never got a sample of this, unfortunately, since the critical part ended up being rewritten in asm anyway.

One of the advantages of vbcc is that there is an official port which is still maintained. Frank is very good at responding to e-mails and trying to get bugs fixed but they have to be reported. Unfortunately, there are not enough developers and users reporting bugs on the 68k to have as professional of software as SAS/C was back when the Amiga was popular. Still, vbcc has other advantages including cross-compiling, better C99 support, easy install, etc. Yea, I know vbcc's 68k backend needs some TLC but there is a new version in the works which makes at least one optimization improvement. The SAS/C 68k backend doesn't generate that great of optimized code either.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Minuous

There is a new interview with Hyperion:

http://www.generationamiga.com/2017/...tainment-cvba/

The statements "even Amiga Inc. cannot market or develop or distribute AmigaOS in any way, shape or form" and, specifically in reference to Cloanto, "There is no legal way to interfere with our exclusive source-code license of AmigaOS" would seem to indicate that Cloanto's new Kickstart is illegal.

Also it is stated that Hyperion is not legally allowed to open source AmigaOS :-(

the solution
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=5580

they catapulted themselves out of the game

game over and soon history

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by michaelz

Just been reading the website of Hyperion and the links to the stipulated document (most notably; the attachment with the agreement).

As far as I can tell on this moment, Amiga Inc and etc held all the rights until 14th of december in 2009. On that moment, a settlement was made and Hyperion got a perpetual, royalty free and worldwide license to the code and objects. Note, they only got a license, not the rights themselves.

On the 11th of march, 2013, the rights were transferred to Cloanto (check my earlier link and open one of the kickstarts for example).

A license is just that, a license. So Hyperion doesn't own anything. It's somewhat the same as when you buy Windows, you don't own the product, you have the right to use it. Hyperion got these rights to the source code, so they could develop products.

To open source code, you need to be the owner of the copyrights. As far as I'm concerned on this moment, until any party involved (every reader in this forum as well) proves me wrong (with factual documents), Cloanto is the party that has these rights.

we cannot make any judgements without knowing the contracts... perhaps they do not own it but have a veto or at least think so. In any case Hyperion means trouble...

[grond]

Originally Posted by michaelz

This is weird, especially since Cloanto appears to have all the rights according to the US Copyright Office.

What do you mean, "all rights"? The record gives a short title to each item (but each item usually deals with a much longer list of individual copyrights) and none seem to deal with the AmigaOS sources. I only saw copyrights to some manuals and ROM binaries listed. The copyright record that deals with the AmigaOS sources still needs to be identified.

[wXR]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

the solution
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=5580

they catapulted themselves out of the game

game over and soon history

Oh now that is BEAUTIFUL. Bloody well done, Vampire team!