Was the C64 good or bad for the games industry?

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

The C64 has just normal saturated colors. But the most pics oder clips on the web uses the old and very inaccurate Pepto palette. He updated his old palette to Colodore, and it's just fine. I can hear this stupid "The C64 has just pastel colors" nonsense anymore. Furthermore the C64 doesn't have fixed colors, so they can look very different (dependig on the used TV/monitor). And the first board revisions output much more saturated colors anyway. I don't know why they decreased the default saturation for the C64c and later models.


https://www.colodore.com/

Strange - there is lot of pictures and palettes but this is obvious... i recall that issue was related to how Commodore implemented color generation - normally color was coded as set of delays i.e. phase shifts of chroma burst - desired color was selected by multiplexer - delay was usually created trough some shift register or chain of gates - in both cases this was rather crude. Btw Denise was also designed as this type output (composite or luminance and chrominance) but last moment RGB was selected as video output thus HAM operate in RGB not in some form of YCxCy color space.

[d4rk3lf]

C64 is my childhood.
My first computer that I spent countless hours playing games.

My favorite games: Elite, Exile, Pirates, Giana, Ghost and Goblins (amazing port from arcade), Wizard of Var, Fantasy world Dizzy (amazing adventure), Creatures 2, Commando, Donald Duck, Bubble Bubble (another amazing port from arcades), Pac Man (and another one)... and many, many more.

It was definitely one of most powerful 8-bit machine out there, but I do agreed with some of the comments that his color palette could be much nicer. However, this palette gave it that unique C64 look, where you can pretty much recognize that the game is from C64, only by palette.
However most of the games were very smooth, and there was bunch of games that are very very playable.

I must admit that my love for my C64 went down a bit, when I saw (for the first time) how games looked on my friends A500. They looked soooo much better.

Good thing about C64 is that you can get bunch of games (well, pirated games) very very cheaply, or for free if you exchanging tapes with your friend.
How much games could fit per tape? At least 30-40.

The annoying thing was, not only loading game, but tweaking that screw in cassette player, until it worked.

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by roondar

The C64 has both red and blue in it's palette. Now the red is admittedly not it's best colour, because both light red and red are not that saturated. But the blue is quite unmistakably blue.

Here's the C64 blue-on-blue startup screen for instance:
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/BASIC

Well I don't see it blue but rather like some kind of purple. But It is true that perception of colors may very among people (and even languages/cultures).

That said, I dont have any problem with the C64 palette. It is its signature and give to its library a very distinctive look. I must say that I'm in admiration with what some were able to pull out of this palette.

[Retro-Nerd]

The purple shade of the blue is due to wrong color palettes used in emulators. A C64 always shows a real blue!

[UberFreak]

I had a Spectrum for a short period before it was replaced with a C64.
I didn't like it then and still don't.
All I remember from those days was having to run a fan above the spectrum all summer, or else it will show graphics "junk" and crash within a few minutes of use.
I guess it was built for British weather

The C64 changed my life and is responsible for most of my childhood friends and for my career, its still on my desk and being used.
I was never a serious gamer so can't really comment on that, but I liked the C64 games I did play much more than Spectrum ones I had, both in the visual aspect and of course audio.

[chb]

Originally Posted by pandy71

Colorful? C64 problem is that all those images are looking exactly same, color limitation severely impacting C64 graphic quality.

C64 is simply unable to deliver something even close to examples provided here: https://github.com/ilmenit/RastaConverter

Yes, the palette is much more limited compared to the A8, but the local color density in standard modes is higher (e.g. Hires 320x200 with two freely selectable colors per 8x8 block). The examples I have linked above are all normal multicolor or hires images, no FLI, no sprites, no rasters. Rasta converter is impressive, but uses a way more complex (and cpu intense) graphics mode.

Originally Posted by pandy71

All true but those threads about POKEY abuse are quite impressive:

Impressive - yes, pleasing - IMHO rather not. A bit like playing mods over a PC speaker. Great technical achievement, but not aesthetically satisfying. Pokey always sounds somewhat harsh to me.

[TheLurker]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

The C64 has just normal saturated colors. But the most pics oder clips on the web uses the old and very inaccurate Pepto palette. He updated his old palette to Colodore, and it's just fine. I can hear this stupid "The C64 has just pastel colors" nonsense anymore. Furthermore the C64 doesn't have fixed colors, so they can look very different (dependig on the used TV/monitor). And the early board revisions output much more saturated colors anyway. I don't know why they decreased the default saturation for the C64c and later models.


https://www.colodore.com/

I doubt this is the forum for this, but I wonder how many people have purchased the VIC-II Kawari and put in their own palette?

[Retro-Nerd]

I've copied PALette (slightly different to Colodore, i.e. yellow tends to be less garish there) on my Ultimate 64 FPGA board and it looks fine on the OLED. It's purely a matter of taste (as long as the colors aren't completely wrong).

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

I can hear this stupid "The C64 has just pastel colors" nonsense anymore.

Hah, I knew we'll end up arguing about the C64 colour palette the moment I saw the thread title

Here's my idea for a drinking game: go to Lemon 64 Top 100 C64 game's list, crank the votes up to 50 to remove some modern stuff, and have a shot of your favourite poison every time you see an instance of brown, purple(ish) or sickly green, yellow or other normal colour. See how long you can last.

That's the reality of how games were made back then. For die-hard C64 fans this might be "realistic", but for everyone else it translates as either "dull" or "weird".

Obviously I'm not talking about every single game, since there are many examples of when this palette can work well, and also you could get used to it, but I'm pretty sure that any modern person would pick Atari/CPC (or sometimes even Spectrum) first.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Hah, I knew we'll end up arguing about the C64 colour palette the moment I saw the thread title

It's as inevitable as the sun rising. Honestly the colour palette on all of them was a bit rubbish. The Speccy/CPC had very saturated colours and missed some useful earthy tones. The C64 had too many grey/brown (and yes, it's red is definitely not red!) colours and it's colour placement constraints only amplified that by tending to use grey everywhere as an accent colour.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Hah, I knew we'll end up arguing about the C64 colour palette the moment I saw the thread title

There's nothing to argue. It's all about taste and a massive dose of nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses.

Which leads to fans of either CPC/Spectrum/C64 to conclude that their system has the best palette, because it is what they grew up with and loved at the time (and therefore still do).

The truth is that AestheticDebris got it right. The 8-bit palettes of these three systems all suck. In their own, special unique ways. Which is exactly why we love them so much

[Megalomaniac]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

This is the biggest problew with your OP - not anything about "the mood", because of course there are a lot of C64 fans on an Amiga board, but stating that this micro had less innovative games than the other platforms.

....there was of course a reason I wanted C64 in the first place, and that was the "big" games. Spectrum has a huge library full of amazing titles, but the reality was that C64 had The Best Game Ever - Pirates!, plus the likes of Pool Of Radiance et al, Maniac Mansion, Bard's Tale, Defender Of The Crown, Ultimas, The Last Ninja, and heaps of other massive "computer game" style releases from that era (some of which you did mention already, like Wasteland), which were mostly impossible to reproduce on the humble 48K ZX or only available on bigger, more expensive machines, like Apple II.

Many of these trailblazing games (eg Pirates! or Maniac Mansion) have originated on C64, so saying that it lacked in this department is simply a no-no.

All in all, if there was only one machine I could take to a desert island, the heart would say "ZX Spectrum" but the brain "C64", and it would be a right choice.


And so it begins

Thanks for the list. You mention some great games, most of which weren't available for Spectrum or Amstrad - Pirates! and Bard's Tale (which actually originated on the Apple II) the only exceptions - and mostly C64 originals. It's noticeable, however, that almost all are American titles, where the option of developing for the Z80 wasn't really there.

These are mostly disk-only on the C64 as well, and it's a real pity that disk drives were never really offered as a plug-in upgrade for Spectrums (and went relatively unexploited on the Amstrad by non-French developers as a result). The Spectrum's hardware could have done many of these games were disk drives routinely used (point and click adventures would be challenging due to the Spectrum's colour mapping issues, and I'm not sure DotC (an Amiga original, obvs) would have enough gameplay to overcome the undoubtedly reduced audiovisuals a Spectrum version would have.

Related to that - when using a C64 now one big annoyance for me is games which (when ran from tape) load cinematic non-gameplay sections and immediately load again, without having any gameplay or even option selection on that load - mostly but not all American games designed for disks, but Turbo Outrun jumps out as another where the multiload is overambitious and a little disrespectful to the player. I know the C64's special Datasette had motor control, which meant you could show non-interactive sections and not worry about the player having to be present to stop and start the tape manually, but I still find it irritating. Maybe I wouldn't if I had grown up with it though.

d4rk3lf's list has some definite classics - there's only Elite and Commando that I'd rather play on the Spectrum than C64, though it's a shame the Spectrum never got Exile, that would have been a perfect fit. Again, mostly arcade-style games though - only Creatures 2 jumps out as something original and innovative that was designed for the C64.

I'm not disputing the C64's legacy of adoring fans, the amount of fun people had with it back-in-the-day and beyond, its quality for arcade-style games, and the high quality of many of them. The issue is whether the system really rewarded innovation and invention in game design to the same scale as some other systems. And, linked to this, whether it was the best training group for a new computer user or a wannabe programmer or IT professional.

[kremiso]

Originally Posted by roondar

There's nothing to argue. It's all about taste and a massive dose of nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses.

Which leads to fans of either CPC/Spectrum/C64 to conclude that their system has the best palette, because it is what they grew up with and loved at the time (and therefore still do).

The truth is that AestheticDebris got it right. The 8-bit palettes of these three systems all suck. In their own, special unique ways. Which is exactly why we love them so much

this
ah ah, i was just considering that in first i was playing using a black & white tv that was inside a closet

and then a garbage color tv, where the palette was the last of the issues

during the Amiga years i had a 1084s, and when i reached to also have another c64 (the later model) i used the extra chroma-luma video cable, and the image on screen was surely better

[roondar]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

I'm not disputing the C64's legacy of adoring fans, the amount of fun people had with it back-in-the-day and beyond, its quality for arcade-style games, and the high quality of many of them. The issue is whether the system really rewarded innovation and invention in game design to the same scale as some other systems. And, linked to this, whether it was the best training group for a new computer user or a wannabe programmer or IT professional.

I do wonder where you got the idea that the 'other systems' (presumably the ZX-Spectrum and Amstrad CPC, as that is usually how this goes) had so many more innovative titles for them.

I can't really think of any list of top Spectrum/Amstrad games that can't be picked apart in the exact same way as you've done for the C64 examples given. Then, that picking apart could be used to conclude that the Spectrum/Amstrad didn't have that many innovative games and therefore these systems were not innovative/the best training tool/bad for the gaming industry, etc.

Just to show what I mean, let me pick out one aspect of your argument (the regional differences between games you talked about): despite what you argue, the US had Z80 based systems, 6809 based systems, 8080/8086 based systems and yes, 6502 based systems.

All of these CPU's had popular computer models based on them sold in the US, so the idea that in the US there was only exposure to the 6502 and therefore innovative C64 games from the US don't really count (as they lacked computers featuring different CPU's) is incorrect to start with. In fact, I could make the exact same argument about the Z80 in the UK. Z80 based systems had a clear market majority in the UK for most of the 8-bit home computer era, ergo innovative games originating in the UK for systems with the Z80 don't count - as the UK didn't have enough 6502 exposure for more innovative 6502 games to originate there.

Note: I did not make the argument above because I believe it, but instead to try and show you why your argument doesn't work.

[Megalomaniac]

Originally Posted by pandy71

http://www.ffd2.com/fridge/speccy/score

FYI i never owned C64 and as such not being emotionally attach to it.

Interesting comparison, though some bias does show at times (the spelling of 'favor' suggests a US author with little Spectrum experience). I'd always considered the 6502 to need half as many cycles as the Z80, which would put the Spectrum's processor about 75% faster than the C64's.

I've done some side-by-side comparisons (from YouTube videos) of 3D games available for both systems and well-regarded on both systems (minimum average of 7 on Lemon64):

I'd say even Mercenary (designed for the 6502, though for the Atari rather than C64 initially) is more than 20% faster and noticeably smoother on the Spectrum.

Fairlight is closer to 75% faster on Spectrum (and looks better on Spectrum IMHO).

Head Over Heels is a good 40-50% faster on the Spectrum, but I'm still pleased it averages over 8 on LemonC64 - it shows that a clever, innovative, challenging game can be appreciated even when it's a bit slow and the visuals could be better. The Amstrad version in the best 8-bit one, much as it pains me to say that.

The Freescape games are horrendously slow on the C64 and bad enough on the Spectrum, but the general focus on exploration and puzzles rather than 'action' or interaction stops it being ruinous, and obviously everything looks clearer on the C64 - Total Eclipse especially would still be worth playing on the C64 if no other versions existed. Actually, C64 Fairlight feels faster than any 8-bit Freescape game.

C64 Elite is visually heavily redesigned to suit the system but is certainly faster than on the Spectrum.

Spindizzy (I've never been sure which system that was designed for originally) jumps out as a real achievement on the C64, although the lack of jumps makes it more 2.5D than 3D. I dare say Spectrum owners found it easier than C64 players who were less used to the diagonal controls produced by the isometric view?

[Dunny]

When it came to the included BASIC interpreters, the C64 didn't fare particularly well.

But if we're talking BASIC then the BBC beat them all.


Edit: Last Ninja 2 was also faster on the Spectrum, if not as pretty to look at.

[Megalomaniac]

Originally Posted by roondar

I do wonder where you got the idea that the 'other systems' (presumably the ZX-Spectrum and Amstrad CPC, as that is usually how this goes) had so many more innovative titles for them.

I can't really think of any list of top Spectrum/Amstrad games that can't be picked apart in the exact same way as you've done for the C64 examples given. Then, that picking apart could be used to conclude that the Spectrum/Amstrad didn't have that many innovative games and therefore these systems were not innovative/the best training tool/bad for the gaming industry, etc.

Just to show what I mean, let me pick out one aspect of your argument (the regional differences between games you talked about): despite what you argue, the US had Z80 based systems, 6809 based systems, 8080/8086 based systems and yes, 6502 based systems.

All of these CPU's had popular computer models based on them sold in the US, so the idea that in the US there was only exposure to the 6502 and therefore innovative C64 games from the US don't really count (as they lacked computers featuring different CPU's) is incorrect to start with. In fact, I could make the exact same argument about the Z80 in the UK. Z80 based systems had a clear market majority in the UK for most of the 8-bit home computer era, ergo innovative games originating in the UK for systems with the Z80 don't count - as the UK didn't have enough 6502 exposure for more innovative 6502 games to originate there.

Note: I did not make the argument above because I believe it, but instead to try and show you why your argument doesn't work.

Fair point that the TRS80 line used a Z80 and (according to Wikipedia) sold 2.4m models in total (which I think only counts the Model 1 and its direct compatible successors), probably mostly in the US, though they cost well over $1000 for most of their lifespan, compared to the C64 only being $595 at launch so were perhaps a bit less mainstream mass-market. Considering that the 65xx series was used in the C64, Vic-20, Apple II and Atari 8-bit, I'd say it must've covered 3/4 of all 'home computer' sales in the US (excluding PCs and Macs but including Amigas and STs). I doubt the other Z80 systems sold more than a million in the USA combined. Conversely the Z80 systems probably accounted for a bit over half of 8-bit computer sales in the UK, and maybe a third of all home computer sales. As well as the C64, the Vic-20 and BBC / Electron used 65x processors and had success here.

[kremiso]

this little video just popped out during the nostalgic retrobrowsing

[ Show youtube player ]

now that huge floppy drives...

[Arne]

While I grew up with the C64 and have a lot of fond memories of it, I barely use it nowadays (unlike the Amiga), and I'm having trouble thinking of iconic on-going game franchises and characters from the system like Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Megaman, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Metal Gear, Castlevania, Kirby, etc. Nothing much is done nowadays with Exile, Paradroid, Mule, Impossible Mission, Bop'n Rumble, Last Ninja, ZigZag, Wizball, IK+, Monty, Zeppelin, Druid, Stormlord... I see the C64 as more foundational and it most certainly inspired a lot of present and past day developers. I'd love to do something with the classic C64 and Speccy characters myself as they're quite charming, but who knows what the IP situation is.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

Bruce Lee, Lode Runner, Archon, Wasteland

I might be wrong here, but weren't these on the Atari 8-Bitters at first?
A lot of the early C64 games originated on the A8s.

And even a lot of other "C64 classics" were created on other platforms first on. Like Elite, M.U.L.E., The Bard's Tale, International Karate, Karateka, etc...

I had a C64 back in the day, but was never really fond of it..
And now that I have discovered the A8s and finding Jay Miner's handwriting in them, I like these a lot more...