Hired Guns intro screen flickers

StevenMarshall · 20 September 2012, 21:27

So i've installed Hired Guns (on a real Amiga 1200), started it and figured the menus are all in the NTSC mode (didn't tried the game though).

Are there any flags that can be set in the tool option to run the game in PAL? I swear i remember seeing those menus back in 94 in the PAL mode.

Predseda · 20 September 2012, 21:30

How do you know they are NTSC? They are interlaced, yes. But NTSC?

StevenMarshall · 20 September 2012, 21:38

I know the display is interlaced, but this happens on top of it. So not only it flickers, but it also moves strangely, sort of like "burning" effect.

I have tried it in WinUAE which has a "flicker fixer" and got exactly the same problem. In fact the screen looks even worse on WinUAE.

Just checked Youtube video and it looks totally ok there, and exactly as i remember when playing it on Amiga back in 94.

StevenMarshall · 20 September 2012, 21:58

Ok after some investigation, maybe it's not NTSC issue.

It must be somethign else, and i'm totally puzzled now. Here is a recording from WinUAE:

[ Show youtube player ]

As you can see the screen flickers which is impossible to happen in WinUAE since it has included flicker fixer when in double line mode (in settings/display).

This is crazy... here's some random Hired Guns video from Youtube and no flicker:
[ Show youtube player ]

Anyone got Hired Guns to try this?

The screen should not flicker in WinUAE since that's impossible to happen in double line mode.

Predseda · 20 September 2012, 22:59

You would notice NTSC mode because it would have speedened up music. 7.15 MHz does very big difference in comparison to standart 7.09 Amiga PAL and the music would sound weird. Also - Hired guns opening is in not in typical gaming resolution, the game itself runs in classic 320x256. For NTSC picture the lower 56 rows is missing, so the only complication for you would be you couldn't see the 'HIRED GUNS' sign, which is at the bottom of the screen (exactly for this purpose).

StevenMarshall · 22 September 2012, 10:25

Right. Turned out it's not a PAL/NTSC issue. It must be something else.

Does anyone in here has installed Hired Guns?

Do you have flickering intro menus:
[ Show youtube player ]

Or non flickering ones:
[ Show youtube player ]

Leffmann · 22 September 2012, 11:44

You get this when not using double line mode.

I have it installed, and it's squashed and flickery when it's not in double line mode, just like on your video, and it stops flickering when double is enabled, just like expected.

StevenMarshall · 22 September 2012, 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leffmann

I have it installed

On a HD?

After some research turned out that the issue i have happens only if i run (installed) game from the HD.

However if i run the game from the floppies, the screen is ok and looks just like it should.

No idea why...

StevenMarshall · 22 September 2012, 19:52

Here it is, installed HD version:

Here is the same game, but played from a floppy (non installed):

If someone wants to give it a try and run it from a HD to check this issue, game is in attach:

Leffmann · 22 September 2012, 22:33

You're right, this version you have here flickers, but the WHDLoad install doesn't. Toni and whoever made the WHDLoad install can probably explain why.

lesta_smsc · 23 September 2012, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenMarshall

Here it is, installed HD version:
Here is the same game, but played from a floppy (non installed):

If someone wants to give it a try and run it from a HD to check this issue, game is in attach:

Seems floppy disk (not installed) version ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leffmann

You're right, this version you have here flickers, but the WHDLoad install doesn't. Toni and whoever made the WHDLoad install can probably explain why.

I thought the WHDLoader HAS flicker?...

Toni Wilen · 23 September 2012, 13:53

Does it happen with KS 3.0? KS 3.1, OS interrupts disabled and interlaced screen created without using OS routines: OS vblank routine keeps reseting interlace odd/even field bit.

Leffmann · 23 September 2012, 14:38

Yeah that has to be it, I just tried mine and the regular install works fine on 3.0 but flickers on 3.1. It's been fixed in the WHDLoad install which runs fine on 3.1.

StevenMarshall · 23 September 2012, 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Does it happen with KS 3.0? KS 3.1, OS interrupts disabled and interlaced screen created without using OS routines: OS vblank routine keeps reseting interlace odd/even field bit.

Correct. Just tried it with Kickstart 3.0 from HD and no flicker.

OTOH there's no flicker with Kickstart 3.1 when the game is running from a floppy. No idea why.

BTW is there a fix for the vblank routine thing? Aside from pulling the KS3.1 and putting back 3.0 EPROMs.

clenched · 24 September 2012, 17:24

There was a thread in the coders section about a Blitz program that misbehaved the same way. This could be made to work by opening graphics.library, set bit 2 in the GfxBase structure [WORD gb_system_bplcon0]. WinUAE didn't seem any worse for wear.

I'm not into the more esoteric screen modes and monitors so the effects of doing this are unknown on real hardware. It also works with hard drive install of my original Hired Guns disks. [WinUAE A1200 3.1 rom].

StevenMarshall · 24 September 2012, 19:25

Ok, going back to OS version 3.0.

Just installed back my 3.0 EPROMs that came with Amiga and put 3.1 ones aside. Also installed a fresh WB 3.0 on my CF. After some research, turned out i really don't need a 3.1.

The intro screens of Hired Guns now work properly!

Thank you for all the help guys!!! And big thanks to Toni.

Predseda · 24 September 2012, 20:28

I have ROMS 3.0 (Kick 39.106) and WB 3.1 (40.42) and Hired guns works fine.

StevenMarshall · 25 September 2012, 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Predseda

I have ROMS 3.0 (Kick 39.106) and WB 3.1 (40.42) and Hired guns works fine.

Yes. It will work on ROM 3.0 as explained previously by Toni.

Maybe a bit OT, but AFAIK it is not best idea to run WB3.1 on OS 3.0.

Predseda · 25 September 2012, 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenMarshall

Maybe a bit OT, but AFAIK it is not best idea to run WB3.1 on OS 3.0.

OT reply: yes, maybe, but it seems to work well at the moment

Hewitson · 28 September 2012, 17:28

I ran WB 3.1 on kick 3.0 for years with no problems whatsoever.

20 September 2012, 21:27	#1
StevenMarshall Registered User Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: EU Posts: 53	Hired Guns intro screen flickers So i've installed Hired Guns (on a real Amiga 1200), started it and figured the menus are all in the NTSC mode (didn't tried the game though). Are there any flags that can be set in the tool option to run the game in PAL? I swear i remember seeing those menus back in 94 in the PAL mode. Last edited by StevenMarshall; 24 September 2012 at 19:30.

20 September 2012, 21:58	#4
StevenMarshall Registered User Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: EU Posts: 53	Ok after some investigation, maybe it's not NTSC issue. It must be somethign else, and i'm totally puzzled now. Here is a recording from WinUAE: [ Show youtube player ] As you can see the screen flickers which is impossible to happen in WinUAE since it has included flicker fixer when in double line mode (in settings/display). This is crazy... here's some random Hired Guns video from Youtube and no flicker: [ Show youtube player ] Anyone got Hired Guns to try this? The screen should not flicker in WinUAE since that's impossible to happen in double line mode. Last edited by StevenMarshall; 20 September 2012 at 22:11.

20 September 2012, 22:59	#5
Predseda Puttymoon inhabitant Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tromaville Age: 46 Posts: 7,535	You would notice NTSC mode because it would have speedened up music. 7.15 MHz does very big difference in comparison to standart 7.09 Amiga PAL and the music would sound weird. Also - Hired guns opening is in not in typical gaming resolution, the game itself runs in classic 320x256. For NTSC picture the lower 56 rows is missing, so the only complication for you would be you couldn't see the 'HIRED GUNS' sign, which is at the bottom of the screen (exactly for this purpose). Last edited by Predseda; 20 September 2012 at 23:06.

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20 September 2012, 21:30	#2
Predseda Puttymoon inhabitant Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tromaville Age: 46 Posts: 7,535	How do you know they are NTSC? They are interlaced, yes. But NTSC?

20 September 2012, 21:38	#3
StevenMarshall Registered User Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: EU Posts: 53	I know the display is interlaced, but this happens on top of it. So not only it flickers, but it also moves strangely, sort of like "burning" effect. I have tried it in WinUAE which has a "flicker fixer" and got exactly the same problem. In fact the screen looks even worse on WinUAE. Just checked Youtube video and it looks totally ok there, and exactly as i remember when playing it on Amiga back in 94.

22 September 2012, 10:25	#6
StevenMarshall Registered User Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: EU Posts: 53	Right. Turned out it's not a PAL/NTSC issue. It must be something else. Does anyone in here has installed Hired Guns? Do you have flickering intro menus: [ Show youtube player ] Or non flickering ones: [ Show youtube player ]

22 September 2012, 11:44	#7
Leffmann Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,269	You get this when not using double line mode. I have it installed, and it's squashed and flickery when it's not in double line mode, just like on your video, and it stops flickering when double is enabled, just like expected.

22 September 2012, 22:33	#10
Leffmann Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,269	You're right, this version you have here flickers, but the WHDLoad install doesn't. Toni and whoever made the WHDLoad install can probably explain why.

23 September 2012, 13:53	#12
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,502	Does it happen with KS 3.0? KS 3.1, OS interrupts disabled and interlaced screen created without using OS routines: OS vblank routine keeps reseting interlace odd/even field bit.

23 September 2012, 14:38	#13
Leffmann Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,269	Yeah that has to be it, I just tried mine and the regular install works fine on 3.0 but flickers on 3.1. It's been fixed in the WHDLoad install which runs fine on 3.1.

24 September 2012, 17:24	#15
clenched Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Gainesville U.S.A. Posts: 771	There was a thread in the coders section about a Blitz program that misbehaved the same way. This could be made to work by opening graphics.library, set bit 2 in the GfxBase structure [WORD gb_system_bplcon0]. WinUAE didn't seem any worse for wear. I'm not into the more esoteric screen modes and monitors so the effects of doing this are unknown on real hardware. It also works with hard drive install of my original Hired Guns disks. [WinUAE A1200 3.1 rom].

24 September 2012, 19:25	#16
StevenMarshall Registered User Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: EU Posts: 53	Ok, going back to OS version 3.0. Just installed back my 3.0 EPROMs that came with Amiga and put 3.1 ones aside. Also installed a fresh WB 3.0 on my CF. After some research, turned out i really don't need a 3.1. The intro screens of Hired Guns now work properly! Thank you for all the help guys!!! And big thanks to Toni.

24 September 2012, 20:28	#17
Predseda Puttymoon inhabitant Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tromaville Age: 46 Posts: 7,535	I have ROMS 3.0 (Kick 39.106) and WB 3.1 (40.42) and Hired guns works fine.

28 September 2012, 17:28	#20
Hewitson Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Age: 41 Posts: 3,771	I ran WB 3.1 on kick 3.0 for years with no problems whatsoever.

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