English Amiga Board Amiga Lore


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Support > support.FS-UAE

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 11 August 2017, 23:39   #101
Photon
Moderator
Photon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hult / Sweden
Posts: 4,430
If you don't care about pixels (as in, developing, drawing), you can just pick the shader you want.

Guest-CRT is sort of going toward the right colors, but has too much blur for utility. Hyllian-CRT doesn't really do much, but it's not aligning scanlines with emulated pixels, which is a general trait of the shaders. It has less blur, but will still interfere with pixel alignment even horizontally via blur so that it's less accurate than mere Bilinear. Comparison. High contrast pixels such as black simply do not, not look thinner on a CRT.

You don't put scanlines generally across a picture that is built out of pixels, I don't care what resolution your screen is, it's just wrong. CRTs draw the pixels by way of scanlines.

All shaders avoid the use of Overlays and thereby the scaling error of WinUAE.

Otherwise it would have been a way of raising the black point, as the beam of a CRT does, again aligned with the scanlines because there is nothing else. Because overlays use standard alpha compositing.

I'm unable to do this with a Mask, since it uses Multiply instead of alpha compositing, which is correct. Still this is what is there on my CRT, and what must be there on my flatscreen in order for a scanline mask not generally just darkening the picture or alternatively wreck the gamut.

I.e. the black point must be raised along the scanline, not generally across the picture.

Fine-grained Gamma control would be nice, but it affects more than the black point. I would have to run too many tests to say colors match.

All I wanted was scanlines, and this was the journey.

1. Display > Scanlines is just every other PC pixel row black. Adjust colors then. Colors way wrong (of course).
2. Filter > Scanline level/opacity can't be matched vertically to scanlines. (Error IMO)
3. Tried Mask, didn't raise the black point (="Scanline level"). Of course. Adjust colors then. Colors less wrong but no cigar.
4. Made just an Overlay to have scanlines with raised black point, looks mint already, but error. Amiga output is shrunk regardless of overlay size; pixels skipped h and v, and general artifacting. Doesn't work as bezel either. Maybe this will be corrected.
5. OK, so give up and try shaders then. All are made for gaming/eyecandy as expected. None for actually using the Amiga. Various deviances experienced and noted.
6. Care too much (well I'm not asking much??)
7. Give up and not bother and change nothing and keep hating UAE

? I dunno. A history of something that should be simple. See my recipe above. Scanlines + correct colors is the foundation. Blur, glow, fine, add that on top.

Probably all the other emulators have gone through the same thing and I haven't bothered because I don't use them, I play them. But the recipe should be the same for them. I feel we can do more than experiment until it looks good for our own favorites. Don't think I don't understand the thrill of enjoying that.

Last edited by Photon; 11 August 2017 at 23:58.
Photon is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
Old 11 August 2017, 23:49   #102
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 45
Posts: 10,593
Have you actually used all the available options in the shader files like guest said? Edit a value via texteditor and then load the emulator again. CRT-Guest doesn't look too much blurred imo. Especially if you are a real 1084 monitor user which has a really soft image anyway. Correct colors is a general problem, they look different on every display anyway (no matter what filter/shader you use). Guest tried do add some tweaking options a few weeks ago, but this isn't as trivial as it sounds.

Quote:
High contrast pixels such as black simply do not, not look thinner on a CRT.
Yes, they actually do. If we mean the same. The black/grey scanlines looks weaker to nearly non existent on brighter colors.

Maybe you shoud add some pics from your Amiga monitor in non-interlaced hires resolution. I really don't have an imagination what you exactly expect from a filter/shader.

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 12 August 2017 at 00:40.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 12 August 2017, 07:24   #103
nobody
Registered User

nobody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: GR
Age: 40
Posts: 742
Need to make different profiles for each case, one for A500 ADF games with shaders low res, one with A1200 ADF games with shaders low res, one A1200 HD with low res and shaders for whdload and one A4000/030 full speed for "serious apps", no any filters not even bilinear. That's what I do.

About using masks instead of shaders I would just use the built in scanlines of Winuae. I also have an 2012 netbook that struggles with new Winuae so I use an old
Winuae 2.3 version with built in scanlines.
nobody is offline  
Old 13 August 2017, 20:00   #104
guest.r
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: EU
Posts: 45
Quote:
Guest-CRT is sort of going toward the right colors, but has too much blur for utility.
It has adjustable horizontal/vertical blur, just need to edit a variable.

Code:
const vec2 scale = vec2(0.15, 0.1);	// H-V sharpness, from 0.01 to 0.25
Quote:
All I wanted was scanlines...
I have setup a scanline shader for you, no color changing, just the scanline effect through brightness adjust. The classic.

It can get complicated, so FS-UAE is mandatory.
This shader uses alligned modulo scanlines and is set up for 1080p displays. Since tastes differ i would advise to adjust the modulo weights, shouldn't be too hard. It's vanilla scanlines and should show what one can expect from a 1080p display and Amiga.

Since hires and productivity were also mentioned i set up some code to display mod 2 scanlines with higher resolutions. There is a catch though. Vertical OS resolutions up to 600 conflict with doubled lores stuff, so it's necessary to crank up the productivity resolution. OK is 640x256, 800x600 etc.. 640x512 for example is to be avoided.

This can't be fixed since the decision is exclusive. Fix WB -> breaks games.
I would also like to note some (very rare) game title screens can look odd, no way around that unless a special hybrid mode is introduced which draws pixels as they are, with doubling removed (not going to happen though).

If someone is not happy with 4x scale scanlines, well, i'm not happy too. 5x looks better and 6x much better. A display with a bigger vertical resolution helps a lot.

Not to forget, the FS-UAE config:

Code:
keep_aspect = 1.0
shader = crt-scanline-hires
Edit: new version, bugfix, gamma control.
Attached Files
File Type: rar crt-scanline-hires.rar (2.0 KB, 14 views)

Last edited by guest.r; 14 August 2017 at 11:47. Reason: Shader update.
guest.r is offline  
Old 15 August 2017, 01:59   #105
Photon
Moderator
Photon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hult / Sweden
Posts: 4,430
Kewl (for FS-UAE) Gamma in=2.2 is correct.

Tested some in WinUAE. Interpolation origin does not behave as expected.

There is only the beam, no scanlines.

The beams can never be completely black. Therefore, raise black point. Beam will always be brighter than the scanlines between them, so scanlines must be a factor of brightness of beams, and there must be no scanlines across pixels in the picture.

Raised black level also matches contrast fix. Flatscreen contrast race=desaturate and raise black level, or lower contrast while keeping white level 100% and raise black level.

Hires=640. 512=interlace (deinterlace=no scanlines please). Simply do not=horizontal pixels thinner.
Photon is offline  
Old 15 August 2017, 10:05   #106
guest.r
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: EU
Posts: 45
Quote:
Tested some in WinUAE. Interpolation origin does not behave as expected.
Edit: if this refers to crt lottes, hyllian, guest and scanline for WinUAE i can confirm that the first two are good ports for WinUAE standards and the last two work as intended. They were not designed by the authors to emulate a specefic CRT hardware though. The only crt shader which tries to do such a thing is crt royale korozumi (sony PVM) and you need a 1440p/4k display to look ok. The shader framework it uses is very advanced. If someone wants various display modes to match the look of his crt, thats even harder and impossible without a proper 4k display and emu author support. You see the only data a shader gets in WinUAE is a buffer offset and the current coordinate (along with the buffer itself) and it's enough for those shaders since we have masks too.


Quote:
The beams can never be completely black. Therefore, raise black point. Beam will always be brighter than the scanlines between them, so scanlines must be a factor of brightness of beams, and there must be no scanlines across pixels in the picture.
It's not commonly used with crt shaders, but np. (see the attached shader below). You can tweak the black point variable.


Quote:
and there must be no scanlines across pixels in the picture.
This is how it looks (look at the picture). There are no scanlines across pixels in the picture, you need at least 4x vertical visual scale for this. If you want some sort of acceptable looking scanlines with lower scale ratios then you can use non aligned modulo scanlines (implemented for 800x600 Picasso96 for example) or buy a better display.

Building a custom shader can be fun nevertheless.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	crt-scanline-hires.png
Views:	32
Size:	248.3 KB
ID:	54204   Click image for larger version

Name:	crt-scanline-hires-bp.png
Views:	25
Size:	263.1 KB
ID:	54208  
Attached Files
File Type: rar crt-scanline-hires-bp.rar (2.1 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by guest.r; Yesterday at 21:40.
guest.r is offline  
Old Yesterday, 21:48   #107
guest.r
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: EU
Posts: 45
This one looks nice to me, has good character.

Recommended settings for FS-UAE:

Code:
keep_aspect = 1.0
line_doubling = 0
low_resolution = 1
shader = crt-pvm-lite
It's tuned for a 1080p display so if you use something else it might need some tweaking.

Happyhats!

Edit: small tweaks
Attached Files
File Type: rar crt-pvm-lite.rar (1.8 KB, 3 views)

Last edited by guest.r; Today at 15:26.
guest.r is offline  
Old Yesterday, 23:13   #108
Photon
Moderator
Photon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hult / Sweden
Posts: 4,430
I do appreciate your efforts guys! and not sarcastic either.

As for the shader route now -
1. Still haven't been able to align beamlines with pixels. All the ones I've tried b0rk fonts and pixels look lit from below.
2. Same for removing the dark-color thinning of horizontal pixels by the B and C params (lerp)
3. Overlays just don't work currently, otherwise I could raise the black level for beamlines without applying general brightness (nothing to do with shaders, I'm explaining the below Display tweaks that shouldn't be necessary)

So there would need to be some changes for me to be able to use them with control.

Instead, this is a shaderless workhorse/precision solution with a mask plus Display settings, which can be changed to suit the resolution. Hey - no anti-ringing needed *badum-tschingg*

Enlarged 2x with Nearest Neighbor to show what I mean. (Doing the same thing in a shader, and then just Bicubic down to 1.5x, seems to be a better recipe than the lerp solution in the shader by far.)

I'm not happy with it, but I have to let this go so I'm using this now.

What I found wanting was lack of desaturation, since you should not change gamma from 2.2 for a calibrated flatscreen, and lack of working Overlay to raise the black level for beam line affected pixels only.

Edit: I have posted some more of what I'm trying to achieve in this thread, maybe you can read it and get a shader going that does 1/2/3/4 there! (This is completely independent of the bounds of the rect size you want for your "physical size flatscreen" if you know what I mean, so it has nothing to do with Windowed mode like in the screenshots. I.e. you can make it 2:2 and window size like in the shots and smaller than a 1084s depending on your flatscreen resolution, or you can make it match 13.3" or whatever it is, or you can make it 19" like a Hantarex arcade CRT, or somewhere around 17" which is what I find ideal.)

If I can make it look like clicking on the screenshots on a 1080p 27" monitor like I have, but with proper colors, this thing will be beat finally. This is how I feel. A reference, and from there favorite games can be tweaked to look shamelessly good.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	NonShader-AsmTwoShot.png
Views:	23
Size:	174.3 KB
ID:	54235   Click image for larger version

Name:	NonShader-Dpaint-Dragon.png
Views:	22
Size:	130.9 KB
ID:	54236  

Last edited by Photon; Today at 00:12.
Photon is offline  
Old Today, 16:35   #109
guest.r
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: EU
Posts: 45
Heya! I'm sorry for some confusion from my side. My bad.

If we discuss WinUAE scanline options, there are some. I'm not teaching an old expert.

FS-UAE allows you to get nitpicky with a shader though, since you get more info and the image resizing rules are scanline shader friendly.
guest.r is offline  
AdSense AdSense  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shaders Zeraphine support.Amiga Forever 0 23 May 2016 23:23
Looking for dithering shaders for FS-UAE switchblade support.FS-UAE 1 28 July 2015 18:13
CG Shaders Enverex support.FS-UAE 2 05 October 2014 18:51
fx Shaders in WinUAE 2.6.0 crazy46guy support.WinUAE 8 16 June 2013 14:30
Using shaders with FS-UAE on Ubuntu [Solved] DaveMB support.FS-UAE 2 14 October 2012 15:46

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Page generated in 0.13647 seconds with 14 queries