Vampire discourse, keep it civil (was: Vampire 1200 V2 waiting times)

[Leon Besson]

Originally Posted by S0ulA55a551n

Strange. As a customer I couldn't give two shits about who is "right" or "wrong" etc etc.

A lot of Vampire users have been treated badly one way or another. Why should the end users be concerned with all this bullshit. Terrible communication, lack of support, infighting and often aggressive replies to requests for help or pointing out issues.

Could have been a decent product. Fucking awful people behind it. And I really don't care who any of the people involved think is to blame.

I am also not interested in some peoples assertion that there are decent people involved, might be the case, but they are all tainted.

Ultimately it is the customers who have suffered.

^^ This I totally agree with ^^

The Amiga Buyer/User seems to get screwed regardless.

[grond]

Originally Posted by lmimmfn

Honestly grond that's a very strange post, without going into everything you posted regarding updates and "why should a one-off payment for a core license somehow guarantee that there would be core updates?" - what is wrong with customers expecting that?

The customer can expect that and is used to some updates for a period of time from other electronics products. I was talking about Igor's POV. Why can Igor expect to get updates for his products when he just pays a one-time fee? That obviously was one point they were arguing about: a separate fee for continued support. Gunnar is always online and answers a lot of question about V2s which is not his product. In the real world Igor would have to answer all those questions (or not) and Gunnar would only have to communicate with Igor as his customer. With the Vampire project this distinction has never been strictly regarded. Igor used to be online much more years ago and then wasn't around any more for increasing periods of time. He slowly disappeared online on IRC, Slack, Discord.

I also don't understand how you keep reading the doc incorrectly, Igor got 172 euro per card, Gunnar/miri got 142 euro per card and Apollo got 82 euro per card, all that is without VAT. Igor's share included the cost of physical card including 30 euro for card development.

My understanding is that the table at the beginning of the document is Gunnar's and Miri's proposal which was rejected by Igor. The rest of the document is Igor's argumentation why this proposal isn't acceptable. This impression is supported by the bad English in the table (Igor's English is much better than Gunnar's and Miri's) and some typical mistakes like "Marge" which is the German word (derived from French) where it should be English "margin". Igor complains about only getting 30€ according to that proposal while Gunnar gets 50€ for the core, doesn't he?

Igor does tell below how the deal was until that point in time: 50€ for Gunnar including 10€ for AROS support, everything else for Igor. He doesn't highlight that fact nor does he explain how much remained after those 50€. He rather says what else he paid to Gunnar.

This is my understanding of the document. Do you understand it differently?

Longterm I agree that Igor producing the cards was unsustainable however his work contributed to the release of an actual solution, him producing the PCB, Gunnar producing the Core. The solution would not exist with both of those contributions, just because Gunnar decides Igor is irrelevant now and Apollo have his previous PCB designs which helped the current V4 designs does not take away from his contribution. If it was me I would have sued Gunnars ass.

Nothing from the V2 PCB design contributed to the V4. This is a ridiculous claim and Igor knows it. I do agree that none of the Vampires as we know them would have happened without Igor. But does that mean that the core has to be sold to Igor at the same conditions forever? Hardly. They didn't reach an agreement as to what the conditions for the future would be. All fine. Igor understand this lack of agreement as his work being robbed from him. And that isn't true. Each side could have a second supplier (often a requirement in the industry) for the part their business depends on. Igor hasn't got a second source for a fast CPU softcore. Gunnar has a second source for an FPGA PCB. While Igor earned more from the V2s sold, he now feels that he actually is in a worse situation. He could be replaced while he can't replace Gunnar.

Apollo have to be the worst company in the Amiga world outside of the legal nonsense regarding AmigaOS, they consistently keep burning customers with their team shenanigans, turning customers off anything they produce because we can't be bothered with their internal shit or their shit treatment of customers in general(banning from forum on the slightest disagreement, the forum, discord and newly their store are the only options for customer support).
This along with their throughput of team members obviously shows they're a monkey outfit.

Perfectly understandable. I usually also make purchase decisions at least partly based on how I feel about a certain company. For a very long time I wouldn't buy anything Sony, now it's Samsung that I don't buy.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by S0ulA55a551n

A lot of Vampire users have been treated badly one way or another. Why should the end users be concerned with all this bullshit.

Because we are not only customers, but also a small scene.

Go to Amiga37, and you will meet a lot of these people we like to discuss about and even drink a beer with them.

This is not Sony or Apple we are talking about.

[S0ulA55a551n]

Originally Posted by Tigerskunk

Because we are not only customers, but also a small scene.

Go to Amiga37, and you will meet a lot of these people we like to discuss about and even drink a beer with them.

This is not Sony or Apple we are talking about.

And them not being Sony or Apple gives them the excuse to treat everyone how they please ?

The fact that it is a small scene should mean people treat each other better because there is no where to hide.

That has been the problem with too many of these small companies/enterprises.

[Chucky]

Thing is that with say. Apple. their customers are fanatic. so even if Apple handles them like shit. they still have their fanbase..

I have for long told that Vampirefanboys are the same. and. so it seems.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by S0ulA55a551n

And them not being Sony or Apple gives them the excuse to treat everyone how they please ?

No idea how you get this from my post.
You asked about why should us end users care about their internal disputes.

That's what I answered about.

I cannot really comment on their treatment of customers. My V1200 has been working perfectly from day one. I only heard good things about Igor supporting customers and not so good things about the other side in this argument.

The few times I wrote to Igor (about shipping the Vamp) I got a friendly and helpful reply.
The Apollo discord on the other side wasn't my cup of tea so I left that after a short time.

But, other people's mileage may differ, off course.

[OlafSch]

@Chucky

There are a lot of "fanboy bubbles" in amiga community, not just vampire

@grond

from a legal view Gunnar might be correct but in this case the team behind can only loose. It will end with lots of angry V2 owners who will never buy anything related again. I would have make a step ahead and said everyone who bought it in good trust before a certain date will be normal user, everyone who then buys it after has no license and buy it from apollo team for x euro. I doubt that they get much money but they will certainly get much trouble... but it is their decision and project

And Igor... with all respect he cheated his customers who believed him all is ok. He not directly harmed the apollo team (more indiirect now by the trouble). I do not understand why people defend that... that is like someone is thinking to be ripped off so he can do the same with others. I do not understand people here...

I do not know who is right or wrong, if document data is ok or not and who did contribute what exactly and to be honest... I do not care

That should have been solved internal without noise and not on the backs of cutomers

[chucsmom69]

i think igor should get a small team of his own and wrirte a core for his V2's that has the features that Gunnar dosnt give a shit about such as native video over hdmi... and all his BS about it not fitting is just that as there are old alpha and test cores that show it is possible.... he just wanted to milk the comunity for his V4 range and I fell into the trap with a firebird that is half finished!

[Leon Besson]

Well just had this pop in my Email inbox;

Warning for recent sales of unlicensed Vampire V2 Series accelerators!
Apollo Computer Press Release, Tuesday 22th July 2022,
We regret to inform our community that negotiations with Igor Majstorovic (former Apollo-Team member) were not successful. Unfortunately, Igor Majstorovic broke existing contracts, stopped paying licence fees, refused to communicate with the Apollo-Team and published parts of old conversations out of context.
This neither clears anything, nor helps to revive the Amiga. Therefore, we want to clarify some important facts:
Background Info:
When Igor Majstorovic joined the Apollo-Team in 2013, he had a barly functional TG68 core used with his PCB board design, and asked the Apollo-Team for help. The 68080 CPU had already been developed by the Apollo-Team/Natami-Team. As it was a significant improvement over TG68, it made sense to use it instead. This required significant changes to the 68080 core. Gunnar von Boehn (teamleader of Apollo-Team) had to both decrease the space required by the core as well as make other functional changes to make this a reality for the Cyclone III FPGA used on Igor's boards. So,there is no question Vampire V1+V2 cards benefit from the previous development, expertise and willingness of the Apollo-Team to support these boards.
Since the 68080 CPU core and the SAGA chipset have always been the intellectual property of Gunnar von Boehn, during his time with the Apollo-Team Igor Majstorovic was a licensee of the CPU and Chipset. After Igor Majstorovic left the Apollo-Team in Q2 2021,he violated the agreement with Apollo-Team and sold a significant number of unlicensed cards.
What's the problem?
Resellers and end customers bought the cards in good faith believing that the core was officially licensed and legal. When asked by resellers, Igor Majstorovic also claimed the cards would be legally licensed. Customers/Resellers who bought these cards must now take action, as the unlicensed cards cannot be updated to new core releases since cores starting with version 2.16, slated for release later this year, will not work on the non-licenced cards. Everyone should be aware that the bugfixes and releases are provided by the Apollo-Team. Igor Majstorovicdoes not support any core maintenance.

What’s the Solution?
1. For customers who bought the V2 before Igor left the team:
==> Don’t worry, you will be able to update to any future cores without any issue.

2. For customers who bought the V2 in the last year:
==> Please get in touch with your reseller to check if your card is licensed. If it is not not, we will try to find a solution all together. We are in close contact with the resellers and want to help the customers and the resellers to resolve this situation.

3. For customers wanting to buy a V2 in future:
==> Apollo-Team is working together with Resellers to develop an official Apollo-Core license Sticker. Customers will then be able to identify licensed cards in future.
Apollo Computer and all its Team members apologize for the inconvenience caused to resellers, customers, and friends by the events of the past few days. Our goal is to find solution for everybody.
Please do not hesitate to contact us with questions or concerns.

With sincere greetings from the whole Apollo-Team,
Miri and Gunnar

P.S. to V4 customers: No worries! Not only do you have the most advanced Apollo Core based cards, they are also licensed. They are not affected by this situation!

[jbenam]

Originally Posted by Apollo Teams's mail

This neither clears anything, nor helps to revive the Amiga.

I cringe hard every time I read the Apollo Team saying that they are "reviving the Amiga".

I still don't know if it's just a cheap trick to pull old Amigans' heartstrings just to sell a few more cards or if they are really that delusional.

Sadly I fear it's the latter.

[Daedalus]

Love the "Tuesday, 22th July" bit

[Chucky]

well you cannot expect their FPU to do the correct calculations of the date

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Love the "Tuesday, 22th July" bit

"Lost in translation"

[daxb]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Love the "Tuesday, 22th July" bit

Nice finding. I only stumbled over the "not not" bit.

[Darby2000]

Originally Posted by lmimmfn

More terrible support from apollo, first kippers cards became "illegal" now some of Igors cards are "illegal"

Honestly have to say what a total shit half assed run "company"

Hey lmimmfn - do you a link saying Kipper-supplied Vampire cards are illegal that you mention ? I picked up an v2 for my A600 from him, so guessing I can’t upgrade it now… meh.

[Havie]

Asked Gunnar about legal cards and whether mine is or not. Also, he said that there will be a couple of core updates for V2 coming (nothing about payment - I guess this linked to illegal cores). Sad that buyers might suffer, when they were buying in good faith, because of some issue between the developers.

I too got the email but can't comment as don't know what has really happened. All I can say is that Igor was an excellent communicator and as I often do, I had a number of chatty emails back and forth. Card arrived quickly once paid for and seems like a decent bloke to me.

[Vypr]

Originally Posted by daxb

Nice finding. I only stumbled over the "not not" bit.

I stopped at "barly"

[lmimmfn]

Originally Posted by Darby2000

Hey lmimmfn - do you a link saying Kipper-supplied Vampire cards are illegal that you mention ? I picked up an v2 for my A600 from him, so guessing I can’t upgrade it now… meh.

Kipper commented earlier in this thread, he would be best to comment on that situation, all I remember is a thread on Apollo with users complaining the video output was black and white and apollo replying that was because the cards we're "illegal"

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Leon Besson

What’s the Solution?
1. For customers who bought the V2 before Igor left the team:
==> Don’t worry, you will be able to update to any future cores without any issue.

2. For customers who bought the V2 in the last year:
==> Please get in touch with your reseller to check if your card is licensed. If it is not not, we will try to find a solution all together. We are in close contact with the resellers and want to help the customers and the resellers to resolve this situation.

This just sounds really awful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only denominator seems to be the fact that the cards were sold by Igor, and not anything technical (since they say the old cards can be freely updated).

Seeing as they pinpoint Q2 2021, nearly a year ago, it is not a customers fault they weren't privy to some internal shenanigans, sorry - "negotiations". Therefore AT should just do the right thing and say they will keep updating everybody's cards, and start their licensing from this point in time, not threatening some code detection of "illegal" cards (another cringeworthy term, after "reviving the Amiga").

Advising on getting a refund from Igor via Paypal (which might be a year old, a lot of hassle, and perhaps not possible at all) is not a solution, but what seems as a really greedy move, as what they presumably really say is "get a refund then buy from us".

[512k]

Originally Posted by lmimmfn

Kipper commented earlier in this thread, he would be best to comment on that situation, all I remember is a thread on Apollo with users complaining the video output was black and white and apollo replying that was because the cards we're "illegal"

I believe the black and white issue was due to you card needing to be registered and added to the core which is no longer needed i believe they added because of this

Beware of Fraudulent Cards Sold By Keith Dumoulin
Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 5774
02 Mar 2018 11:47

Background story:

Igor did design the Vampire V500 and the Vampire V500 V2+.
After Igor did design the V500 he did some measurements
and was not fully happy with the card.
He decided that he wanted a higher quality for the customers and designed the improved V500 V2+ and it was decided that the V500 should NEVER be sold to users.

Keith Dumoulin stole files from Igor Majsta server and populated those V500 cards which should never had been sold.

Keith is motivated by greed - and does not care about users getting bad cards or about the teams reputation.


If you assume that you bought a fake card, then please contact us directly with information from whom you bought the card and when.
We will try to solve this matter and we will help you.


In case that you really got a fake card,
we would advice you contact Paypal customer protection to reclaim your money.

Was a fan at the beginning lost all interest due to the bs