English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Retrogaming General Discussion

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06 November 2015, 19:47   #121
Toni Wilen
WinUAE developer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland
Age: 47
Posts: 25,382
You can have smooth-looking 25Hz scrolling if scrolling is slow, single pixel (exactly single pixel, never more) movement every other frame.

Many 25Hz games scroll 2 or more pixels every other frame = very easy to see the difference vs 50Hz.
Toni Wilen is online now  
Old 06 November 2015, 19:48   #122
Sandro
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: spain
Posts: 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
Well, this has nothing to do with 50fps in 2D games. So, please no discussion about 3D games. Your Apidya assumption about running at 30-40 frames is wrong.
you don't know if is wrong or not , was a simple assumption trying to solve the apydya mystery
Sandro is offline  
Old 06 November 2015, 19:52   #123
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 50
Posts: 12,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
You can have smooth-looking 25Hz scrolling if scrolling is slow, single pixel (exactly single pixel, never more) movement every other frame.

Many 25Hz games scroll 2 or more pixels every other frame = very easy to see the difference vs 50Hz.
Ah ok. Then the slow scrolling is the key here. Thanks for the confirmation, Toni.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 06 November 2015, 19:57   #124
demolition
Unregistered User
demolition's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Copenhagen / DK
Age: 42
Posts: 4,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandro View Post
Today no one consider a game playlable at 30 fps, they start to consider it over 45fps

if you don't believe try Halo on windows,in this game you can switch refresh rate from 30 FPS to the maximum supported by ur monitor or driver

in this game 30fps vs 60 fps the difference is very obvious,
60 fps vs 120fps difference also is obvious
I agree that 30 fps is too little to be smooth, but nevertheless most modern consoles run games at 24-30 fps.
demolition is offline  
Old 06 November 2015, 20:06   #125
ReadOnlyCat
Code Kitten

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Montreal/Canadia
Age: 50
Posts: 1,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
You can have smooth-looking 25Hz scrolling if scrolling is slow, single pixel (exactly single pixel, never more) movement every other frame.

Many 25Hz games scroll 2 or more pixels every other frame = very easy to see the difference vs 50Hz.
Absolutely, this can also work with higher speeds such as very fast moving foreground objects.

You can even have smooth scrolling with non integer FPS as long as the delay between each pixel scroll is constant.

25 FPS means updating the screen every two frames. Updating it every three frames would be 50/3 = 16.666... FPS and could be smooth enough for the eye to not notice (this depends on many parameters so this is not a general rule).
Studies have shown that humans perceive movies played at 15 FPS as smooth/fluid as long as the delay between each frame is absolutely constant while the same movie played at variable 30 FPS is perceived as not smooth.

It is an art in itself to create the illusion of smoothness but regularity is the most important factor.
ReadOnlyCat is offline  
Old 06 November 2015, 20:28   #126
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 50
Posts: 12,268
16.666 fps? A bit too slow for sidescroller. I could imagine that it work fine for some pseudo 3D racing games.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 06 November 2015, 20:59   #127
ReadOnlyCat
Code Kitten

 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Montreal/Canadia
Age: 50
Posts: 1,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd View Post
16.666 fps? A bit too slow for sidescroller. I could imagine that it work fine for some pseudo 3D racing games.
This might indeed depend a lot on the type of animation and scrolling is indeed a special kind of such kitten.
If I ever get to finish the other things I planned to do this weekend I'll try to make a small test program. Do not hold your breath though as I am usually pretty bad at doing what I planned.
ReadOnlyCat is offline  
Old 06 November 2015, 21:23   #128
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 50
Posts: 12,268
Ok. Time for a new list. So far i've verified the following games as 50fps with Toni's refresh rate method.

Alien Breed
Alien Breed II
Alien Breed Tower Assault
Assassin
Assasin Special Edition
Beastlord
Bram Stoker's Dracula
Overkill
Speris Legacy
ATR - All Terrain Racing
Goal!
Hagar the Horrible
Kid Gloves 2
StarRay
Insects in Space
Spindizzy Worlds
Deluxe Galaga
Death Trap
Cool World
Chrome
Cedric and the Lost Sceptre
Anarchy
Dennis
Kid Chaos
The Addams Family
Overdrive (Team 17)
Total Recall
Firefoce
Yoe Joe!
Rolling Ronny
Metal Law
Warp
Plutos
Vader
Dragon Spirit
Gemini Wing
Firefly
Hellbent
Sidewinder
Atax
Apano Sin
Cyberpunks
Cytron
Fantastic Voyage
Cliffhanger
Alien 3
Navy Seals
The Plague
Sword
Operation Firestorm
Ork
Marvin's Marvelous Adventure
Crazy Sue
Crazy Sue Goes On
Creatures
Oscar
P.P. Hammer and His Pneumatic Weapon
Pinkie
Quick the Thunder Rabbit
Rackney's Island
Scooby-Doo and Scrappy-Doo
The Simpsons - Bart vs. The Space Mutants
Ruffian
Terry's Big Adventure
Tearaway Thomas
Super Cauldron
Wiz'n Liz
wonder Dog
Woodys World
Beavers
Blues Brothers
Bubble and Squeak
Lolly Pop
Tin Toy Adventure in the House of Fun
Traps'n Treasures
McDonald Land
Flimbo's Quest
Jimmy's Fantastic Journey
Brian the Lion
Nicky Boom
Nicky II
BC Kid
Charly J Cool
Trolls
Puggsy
Roadkill
Rat Trap
Doofus
Titus the Fox
Apache
Super Frog
Soccer Kid
Sleepwalker
Wings of Death
Hybris
James Pond 1-3
Turrican Series
Lionheart
Apprentice
Disposable Hero
Cardiaxx
Carcharodon - White Sharks
Chuck Rock
Chuck Rock II
X-Out
Silkworm
Gainforce
Phobia
Menace
Bio Challenge
Blastar
Zool
Zool II
Venus the Fly Trap
Uridium II
Twinworld
Seven Gates of Jambala
Slam Tilt
Pinball Dreams, Fantasies, Illusions
Pang
Mr. Nutz
Lethal Weapon
Rock'n Roll
Shadow of the Beast I - III
Great Giana Sisters
Leander
Jim Power
Hudson Hawk
Hard'n Heavy
Harlequin
Dyter-07
Caveman Ninja
Battle Valley
Switchblade II
Tony and his Friends in Kellog's Land
The Adventures of Quick & Silva
Odyssey
Universal Warrior
Sensible World of Soccer


25 fps games with smooth scrolling

Apidya
Blood Money
Katakis
Ziriax
Watchtower
Agony
Z-Out
Project X
The Oath
Banshee
Battle Squadron
Mega Typhoon
Sarcophaser
Dragon Breed
Lunar-C
R-Type
Saint Dragon
Rainbow Islands
Midnight Resistance
Apache Flight
Bomber Bob
Foundation's Waste
Kamikaze
Killing Machine
Violator
Time Soldier
XP8
Scramble Spirits
Sonic Boom

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 10 November 2015 at 14:47.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 06 November 2015, 21:36   #129
Sandro
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: spain
Posts: 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by demolition View Post
I agree that 30 fps is too little to be smooth, but nevertheless most modern consoles run games at 24-30 fps.
yes some games runs at 24-30 fps in consoles like the x360 or ps3 because those games are so complex for the hardware of such consoles they can't reach 60 fps ie halo 3, gears of war
but I think that today most games in consoles run at 60fps
Sandro is offline  
Old 06 November 2015, 22:52   #130
vulture
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Athens , Greece
Posts: 1,443
@retro-nerd

great work! I'll update the list tomorrow with your findings.
vulture is offline  
Old 06 November 2015, 22:55   #131
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 50
Posts: 12,268
You should keep a second list with smooth scrolling 25fps games though. That it useful information too.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 07 November 2015, 08:55   #132
vulture
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Athens , Greece
Posts: 1,443
Sure, why not?
vulture is offline  
Old 07 November 2015, 12:30   #133
Asman
68k

Asman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 797
@Retro-Nerd. I'm bit dissapointed that Mega Thypoon is 25fps with smooth scroll. As I remember author claimed in readme file that is true 50fps game http://aminet.net/package/game/demo/megatyphoon.
Asman is offline  
Old 07 November 2015, 12:37   #134
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 50
Posts: 12,268
Well, i don't know for sure. I'm only posting the testing results via Toni's refresh rate change method. And Mega Typhoon shows nothing when the refresh rate is changed.

Quote:
50 (!) frames per second (fps)
(all conventional games with comparable number, size and complexity of moving objects run at 17 or at most 25 fps only )
He mentions only the moving objects, not the scrolling. And the scrolling is slow enough that 25fps could be true.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 10 November 2015, 04:22   #135
idrougge
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 4,100
Roadkill.
idrougge is offline  
Old 10 November 2015, 04:38   #136
turrican3
Moon 1969 = amiga 1985

turrican3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: belgium
Age: 46
Posts: 3,861
retro,
brian the lion ecs and aga ???
by the way : do we know games which can run 50 fps on aga but failed on ecs ???

Last edited by turrican3; 10 November 2015 at 04:49.
turrican3 is offline  
Old 10 November 2015, 11:03   #137
vulture
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Athens , Greece
Posts: 1,443
Sorry I haven't updated the lists at first post yet, I just need to find some time to sort everything and have it done properly. Soon.
vulture is offline  
Old 10 November 2015, 12:57   #138
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 50
Posts: 12,268
Roadkill is true of course. I put it on the list. For Brian the Lion: Both, ECS and AGA.

Btw: This is a scrolling verified list only. I would take much more time to check if they are full 50fps games (with moving objects in 50fps) like Turrican or Lionheart. Feel free to do it yourself.
Retro-Nerd is offline  
Old 10 November 2015, 14:35   #139
Predseda
Puttymoon inhabitant
Predseda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Tromaville
Age: 44
Posts: 6,929
Send a message via ICQ to Predseda
Speris Legacy.
Predseda is offline  
Old 12 November 2015, 18:36   #140
Toni Wilen
WinUAE developer
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland
Age: 47
Posts: 25,382
As promised (after 3.2 is out), here is hopefully better display update rate detection feature.

http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae.7z

Add "show_refresh_indicator=true" to config file to enable it.

Bar appears in left border:

Grey = line was last changed 1 frame ago
Green = line was last changed 2 frames ago
Blue = line was last changed 3 frames ago
Black = line was last changed 4 or more frames ago.

In other words: constant grey = every frame updates. grey/green flicker = 25Hz and so on.

It compares bitmap data only, color changes or sprites don't count as changed.

Note that it may increase CPU usage noticeably. (All lines must be checked and redrawn all the time)
Toni Wilen is online now  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Best Amiga 3D FPS Steve Retrogaming General Discussion 112 22 November 2015 16:28
New Amiga FPS game 2015 "Ultimate Maze: Wanker's Dream" was released! nittamituaki News 36 22 August 2015 00:12
Doomed: The Embers of Amiga FPS turrican3 Nostalgia & memories 3 24 March 2015 15:38
Less than 50 fps...? pmc Coders. General 4 19 April 2010 11:59
Problem: Speeding up games for better fps ApOkwARG project.MAGE 17 17 November 2009 16:35

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.10971 seconds with 16 queries