What Makes The Amiga CD32 The Best Amiga?

[Gilbert]

Originally Posted by mcgeezer

I had a ZX81, I l know what can be done in 1kb.

Now you see how big CD32 save slots really are.

And if you have a SX-1 you can use the HD as NVRAM. Would have been simple to provide extra storage in future

[Gilbert]

Originally Posted by Konrad

@Gilbert:
You are clearly not discussing . People have tried, but your lack of knowledge (regarding emulation and possibilities of 1k) and apples&orange arguments (atari 2600 games, savegame size comparison with Exile) doesn't help.

You received technical information of people who know their stuff. But instead of considering them you try to convince people with walls of text.

Also thinking that people hate cd32 "owners" just because they criticise the cd32 is very far-fetched. In fact people are just annoyed of you as there is almost no SUBSTANTIAL discussion from your side.

You just want to convince, no matter how far-fetched the arguments are you bring up.

I really thought in the beginning that you're just trolling a little for fun. But I'm really shocked at how stubborn you are not accepting valid arguments, but sticking to nonsense and accusations (f.ex. hate for cd32 owners).

Everyone can have his own opinion. But that doesn't mean that you can't accept valid arguments. No one wants to convince you to dislike the cd32. If you like it best, so be it. But be more realistic and don't misunderstand critic on the cd32 as personal attack on you.

Stop with the personal attacks It's getting boring. Discuss your favourite Amiga or don't discuss it. Instead of answering my points you keep trying to attack me personally. I have no interest in attacking you back so good luck with trying to cause tension here


I told you I use an emulator and why I prefer original hardware. Plenty of people use original hardware - it's not that radical. Go tell them they are stupid. Good luck with that

Feel free to discuss the Doom/Akiko benchmark tests Akiko does make a difference there

[Gilbert]

Originally Posted by jotd

my proof of bias against CD32 users:

cd32load: https://github.com/jotd666/cd32load
cd32launch: https://github.com/jotd666/cd32launch
enhanced cd32 games: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=94158

yeah, I hate cd32 users so much that I spend my evenings finding ways to run games on this damn thing, just to annoy them.

You've always been good natured in this thread.

[jotd]

thans yeah i m not into fuelling fires too much. playing on any real amiga in 2020 is fun.

[Konrad]

Originally Posted by Gilbert

Stop with the personal attacks It's getting boring.

Your sentence implies that there are repeated personal attacks on you. Where are those ? "Rose-tinted glasses" doesn't count for this. Does disagreeing with you and having other arguments already count ?
Yes, my LAST post wasn't the nicest. But I mostly got angry because of the following BS:

Originally Posted by Gilbert

I feel a lot of A1200 owners do get insecure when the CD32 is nearby. They have to try to bring the CD32 down to A1200 level. Understandable though.

Originally Posted by Gilbert

We CD32-owners have to put up with a lot of abuse.

Originally Posted by Gilbert

But we CD32 owners are used to worse...

Originally Posted by Gilbert

Proof of bias against CD32 owners right there.
[...]Being a CD32 owner is like having right wing views these days - they might be reasonable right-wing views but everyone still hates you for it

There is NO post in this thread which would prove that Amiga computer users here hate cd32 users. But you won't stop repeating this. There is no hate on cd32 users, this is an Amiga forum after all.
CD32 users are not centered around you, so discussing with you, even attacks towards you, doesn't mean that ALL cd32 users are attacked.

Originally Posted by Gilbert

trying to cause tension here

Interesting that you say so as I see you trying to cause tension, see above. You clearly attack A1200 users in general, I quoted you.

Originally Posted by Gilbert

I told you I use an emulator and why I prefer original hardware. Plenty of people use original hardware - it's not that radical. Go tell them they are stupid. Good luck with that

I also own original hardware as this offers a different feeling than an emulator. So I'm definitely not telling them they're stupid. A word which I didn't use anywhere in the thread, if you check again. So don't imply this.

Originally Posted by Gilbert

You can't emulate a CD32 on a standard Amiga, that's like saying you can emulate an Amiga on a PC

Yes, you CAN emulate an Amiga on the PC. If that's up to your LIKING because the feeling is different, that is on a different page. But technically it's possible.

Regarding emulating CD32 on an A1200 or A4000: If I start Microcosm on an A1200, with original CD32 controller attached and hide the Amiga behind a cover, you won't notice a difference anywhere playing this game. And that's the case for all the CD32 games not using it's special hardware (Akiko). The CD32 shares most of the hardware of an A1200 (plain said: cut-down A1200 with Akiko added). That's why I and others say that there was no real groundbreaking added features.

Regarding your Akiko results:
a) This is one(!) game you're talking about, but anyway...
b) Take the results without FAST, as this is base cd32. What we were discussing here. No updates for A1200 allowed -> no updates for CD32 allowed
Yes, c2p with Akiko is faster than without. No one would disagree here. You can see that the A400 with 68040/25 is faster than a base cd32. cd32+fast is 1 ms faster than the 68040/25.
The point is that the results are in general not very impressive. It's too small of an increase in power to be competitive in the console market. Also too small of an increase to outweight the disadvantages (no keyboard, fdd, hd slot without expansion). The jump was just too small.

Regarding your 1K discussion: It doesn't matter if you can program games for a ZX81 which are 1K in size. I think you can also program a simple text based game for Amiga in 1K.
But games are much more advanced now and need to save much more information. An adventure f.ex. has to store which rooms you have visited, to which persons you have talked, which dialog direction you took, which items you have collected and more. 1K is a tight fit there. And now tell me how much information Exile has to save. I tell you: Much less. Apples and Oranges all over the place here.
Not being a programmer, but saying

Originally Posted by Gilbert

So people who can't fit their save data in it - suck

is pretty arrogant.

[jotd]

the CD32 could have used 128k of flash memory or more, but price was probably prohibitive. And you weren't able to save that memory anyway.

And a floppy would have been ludicriously looking on a CD console. And any optional save device would mean a no sale for the game requiring it.

other CD consoles didn't offer as much adventure/computer-like games where you had to save a lot of data. So in the nineties I don't see a viable solution to be able to play exactly the same games as real amigas on a CD32. It's a good machine, but you just could not create anything on it (well let's not mention the Communicator extension)

[skan]

Originally Posted by jotd

the CD32 could have used 128k of flash memory or more, but price was probably prohibitive. And you weren't able to save that memory anyway.

Why not? Just asking... CDTV-CR had a 128/256K flash module and Gayle could address 256K flashram IIRC...I mean, the tech was ready, but Commodore managment screwed everything again.

[jotd]

I didn't know that. Yes, that was really stupid to omit that part. CD32 was certainly rushed. I don't even understand why they bothered to create akiko c2p capability when it was only used by the graphics library, meaning that games not using the OS couldn't benefit of it (and I never saw any game using akiko for that directly)

Fitting a proper sized flash memory and serial port to be able to back it up would have been a better move.

[skan]

Originally Posted by jotd

I don't even understand why they bothered to create akiko c2p capability when it was only used by the graphics library, meaning that games not using the OS couldn't benefit of it (and I never saw any game using akiko for that directly)

I think the whole c2p stuff (as well as the 1K outrageous flashram) is just a kinda "side effect" of having some spare space left on the chip design (and let's not forget Akiko is just an attempt to cost reduce the chipset design by eliminating CIAs+Gayle+Budgie and throwing a CDROM controller in the mix).

A bit of explanation can be found here: https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...t.aspx?id=1604

[khayoz]

Originally Posted by Gilbert

There are many reasons but for me it was the multi-button controller (for bespoke games meant no more pressing up on joystick to jump) combined with no disk-swapping


Just a much better experience all round


How about for everyone else?

My Favourite Miggy is still the A500 or the Amy Prototype, but in the CD era its the CDTV(yeah own the CD32 aswell.)

But as you say, CD32 four button support! ACE!

[Avrovulcan]

I rushed out and bought a CD32 as soon as it was released in the UK. Although I was initially impressed with the hardware, the down side for me was the endless waiting for the MPEG module to be released. In the end, what with Commodore's endless financial problems I finally ditched the Amiga as a platform and migrated to the PC. Any regrets?? Only so far as my grandmother sold (or threw out) my CD32 along with my A1200. I didn't like the controller on the CD32. I'm sure theres nothing wrong with it, but for playing games (even now) I prefer mouse and keyboard input. Big regrets that I didn't take care of my hardware. At some point I will get another, even if it is just to add one to my collection.

[Retro-Nerd]

Puuh, such a thread in 2020? It was dicussed a million times before. The CD32 was a rushed release to make at least a extra few bucks out of the A1200 technology. The flaws are massive:


1. Horribly cheap built quality.

2. No RGB out in 1993!!!

3. a nearly pointless controller. The multi-button design was a good idea. The standard pad though is pretty much useless. Only 3rd party controller works as you would expect.

4. A very picky CD drive. One you the worst in all CD consoles.

5. Mostly lame 1:1 disk ports. Some with CD audio, only a few CD32 exclusive games.

6. Way too tiny flashram

So NO, clearly not the best Amiga at all. But today you can fix some of the flaws with additional hardware to make it a bearable Amiga.

[Retro1234]

with things like WHDload the A600 and CD32 are now good machines.

[Paul_s]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Puuh, such a thread in 2020? It was dicussed a million times before. The CD32 was a rushed release to make at least a extra few bucks out of the A1200 technology. The flaws are massive:


1. Horribly cheap built quality.

2. No RGB out in 1993!!!

3. a nearly pointless controller. The multi-button design was a good idea. The standard pad though is pretty much useless. Only 3rd party controller works as you would expect.

4. A very picky CD drive. One you the worst in all CD consoles.

5. Mostly lame 1:1 disk ports. Some with CD audio, only a few CD32 exclusive games.

6. Way too tiny flashram

So NO, clearly not the best Amiga at all. But today you can fix some of the flaws with additional hardware to make it a bearable Amiga.

Wouldn't be the same without these threads popping up every now and then

I feel the same with the points raised; now... if the CD32 had the same build quality as the CDTV and fixed some of the issues that came from CDTV era we'd have a system to reckon with - but times/budget constraints were different in 1993/4 than when the CDTV went into development I guess. The standard controller on the CD32 - there is no excuse for that. Poorly implemented/design and horrible cheap internals that crumble in your very hands (same with the innards of the CD drive - cheap/brittle plastics (moreso with age))).

As mentioned, CD32 is probably that bit more bearable to live with now but it's not my favourite of the bunch - I still love the 500, 2000 and 3000 more than any other system (vintage or modern).

[FOL]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Puuh, such a thread in 2020? It was dicussed a million times before. The CD32 was a rushed release to make at least a extra few bucks out of the A1200 technology. The flaws are massive:


1. Horribly cheap built quality.

2. No RGB out in 1993!!!

3. a nearly pointless controller. The multi-button design was a good idea. The standard pad though is pretty much useless. Only 3rd party controller works as you would expect.

4. A very picky CD drive. One you the worst in all CD consoles.

5. Mostly lame 1:1 disk ports. Some with CD audio, only a few CD32 exclusive games.

6. Way too tiny flashram

So NO, clearly not the best Amiga at all. But today you can fix some of the flaws with additional hardware to make it a bearable Amiga.

1. Lid maybe.


2. So, it had S-Video. Which was a good enough compromise (they were a standard on TV's back then, like scart).


3. Completely dis-agree. Still have my original controller in mint condition and working fine. People only moanded, cause like everything else they are heavy handed and break them.


4. Completely incorrect. Nothing wrong with the drive, it just suffered from same issues every CD drive had at those times. I used to repair KSM mechs on a daily basis as an apprentice. People give them a hard time as it won't play every recordable disc. Can't right it off, because they played original printed discs fine.


5. Agree on flash RAM, having to finish a game before playing another, due to it taking all flash ram was annoying.


Jeez, I used to get excited, when a demo disc loaded workbench, .

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by FOL

I used to repair KSM mechs on a daily basis

Lol.. little of topic, but this reminds me of one case in my youth.

We had a "not so smart" friend, and once he started complain to us (the rest of us friends) that his CD player won't play his new Nightwish album, and it skips all the time.
We exanimated the CD Player and the disk, and what we find out made us shock, and hard laughing.

The guy simply took divider, the sharp side (niddle) and carved on CD (the reading side) his nickname "RAKA", and he had no clue that it will damage the CD.

[FOL]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Lol.. little of topic, but this reminds me of one case in my youth.

We had a "not so smart" friend, and once he started complain to us (the rest of us friends) that his CD player won't play his new Nightwish album, and it skips all the time.
We exanimated the CD Player and the disk, and what we find out made us shock, and hard laughing.

The guy simply took divider, the sharp side (niddle) and carved on CD (the reading side) his nickname "RAKA", and he had no clue that it will damage the CD.

Oh my, scratching either side will damage a disc. Reading, you will alter pits. Label, you would remove the reflective layer.


FACE PALM moment,

[Retro-Nerd]

It's beyond my imagination why anyone would want to defend the original CD32 console release, which was pointless in 1993 anyway due to the Mega Drive and SNES. It this really a "UK only" thing? Because in Germany nobody cared about it. Even the A1200, which was a financial flop, sold more machines here. Best thing about the CD32 is the multi button controller. Today it makes Amiga games more comfortable to play. But that's it imo.

[skan]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

It's beyond my imagination why anyone would want to defend the original CD32 console release, which was pointless in 1993 anyway due to the Mega Drive and SNES. It this really a "UK only" thing? Because in Germany nobody cared about it. Even the A1200, which was a financial flop, sold more machines here. Best thing about the CD32 is the multi button controller. Today it makes Amiga games more comfortable to play. But that's it imo.

Far from pointless, just half-baked and hopeless from the start!

[Gilbert]

Originally Posted by Konrad

Your sentence implies that there are repeated personal attacks on you. Where are those ? "Rose-tinted glasses" doesn't count for this. Does disagreeing with you and having other arguments already count ?
Yes, my LAST post wasn't the nicest. But I mostly got angry because of the following BS:





There is NO post in this thread which would prove that Amiga computer users here hate cd32 users. But you won't stop repeating this. There is no hate on cd32 users, this is an Amiga forum after all.
CD32 users are not centered around you, so discussing with you, even attacks towards you, doesn't mean that ALL cd32 users are attacked.


Interesting that you say so as I see you trying to cause tension, see above. You clearly attack A1200 users in general, I quoted you.


I also own original hardware as this offers a different feeling than an emulator. So I'm definitely not telling them they're stupid. A word which I didn't use anywhere in the thread, if you check again. So don't imply this.

Yes, you CAN emulate an Amiga on the PC. If that's up to your LIKING because the feeling is different, that is on a different page. But technically it's possible.

Regarding emulating CD32 on an A1200 or A4000: If I start Microcosm on an A1200, with original CD32 controller attached and hide the Amiga behind a cover, you won't notice a difference anywhere playing this game. And that's the case for all the CD32 games not using it's special hardware (Akiko). The CD32 shares most of the hardware of an A1200 (plain said: cut-down A1200 with Akiko added). That's why I and others say that there was no real groundbreaking added features.

Regarding your Akiko results:
a) This is one(!) game you're talking about, but anyway...
b) Take the results without FAST, as this is base cd32. What we were discussing here. No updates for A1200 allowed -> no updates for CD32 allowed
Yes, c2p with Akiko is faster than without. No one would disagree here. You can see that the A400 with 68040/25 is faster than a base cd32. cd32+fast is 1 ms faster than the 68040/25.
The point is that the results are in general not very impressive. It's too small of an increase in power to be competitive in the console market. Also too small of an increase to outweight the disadvantages (no keyboard, fdd, hd slot without expansion). The jump was just too small.

Regarding your 1K discussion: It doesn't matter if you can program games for a ZX81 which are 1K in size. I think you can also program a simple text based game for Amiga in 1K.
But games are much more advanced now and need to save much more information. An adventure f.ex. has to store which rooms you have visited, to which persons you have talked, which dialog direction you took, which items you have collected and more. 1K is a tight fit there. And now tell me how much information Exile has to save. I tell you: Much less. Apples and Oranges all over the place here.
Not being a programmer, but saying

is pretty arrogant.

My posts about CD32 owners being abused were in response to me being abused for doing nothing more than state how great the CD32 was. So make of that what you will. I haven't mentioned people hating CD32 owners apart from that one time. You are the one who keeps going on about it. I would say other Amiga model owners are very insecure about the CD32. So I happy to make allowances for them getting upset about CD32 owners getting the enhanced versions of all their games

I haven't attacked A1200 owners. It's a good choice of machine. A lot of them do seem very keen to turn it into a CD32 though. Again I understand this. I would probably be doing the same thing!

Agreed Akiko wasn't a big advantage BUT the CPU is free while it's doing it's thing. Akiko put it's results into memory - to be retrieved when they are needed. Also even the CD32 games that use Akiko (like Gloom Deluxe) probably did a quick fix to include it without working it into optimal routines.

Also dont forget the CD32's streaming ability - imagine how much graphical data and lookup tables you could stream in to speed up games on the fly.

Exile is a whole consistent open world so it's quite a lot I'd imagine. Also I said many posts ago that 1k wasn't ideal but it's fine for most games. If you need to save 10,000 football player stats and names then maybe that's hard to get into 1k. But then you always have the SX-1 to increase storage. No one ever criticsed the Playstation for needing additional memory cards to save games.